The Corner Box S1Ep30 - The Andrew Griffith Interview: From Transformers to Signa

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to The Corner Box, where we talk about comics as an industry and an art form. You never know where the discussion will go or who will show up to join host David Hedgecock and John Barber. Between them, they've spent decades writing, drawing, lettering, coloring, editing, editor-in-chiefing, and publishing comics. If you want to know the behind-the-scenes secrets, the highs and lows, the ins and outs of the best artistic medium in the world, then listen in and join us on The Corner Box.

[00:31] John Barber: Hi, and welcome to The Corner Box. I'm John Barber, one of your regular hosts. With me, as always, is

[00:38] David Hedgecock: David Hedgecock. Hi, John.

[00:40] John: Hey, and we've got a special guest this time, somebody we've talked about, I think a few times on the show, Andrew Lee Griffith.

[00:47] Andrew Griffith: Hi, how you doing?

[00:49] John: Andrew and I are recording this on what you pointed out, would you say it was the day after the 12th anniversary of our first comic coming up together?

[00:57] Andrew: Yeah.

[01:00] John: That's not true. So, we had a comic before that. That wasn't our first.

[01:03] Andrew: The first ongoing comic, and we did a miniseries before that.

[01:08] David: 12 years. Wow. You guys have known each other for 12 years.

[01:10] John: 12 years is when Transformers Robots in Disguise #1 came out. We’d been running together for about a year at that point, at least.

[01:18] Andrew: Yeah, because I remember when the book came out, we had a lot of lead time on the book. I think we first got hired in the summer or the spring before.

[01:26] John: It was announced on June 5th, 2011, which was my daughter's birthday, literal birthday, the day she was born, because I remember being in the hospital, seeing the announcement on Twitter.

[01:37] David: That's pretty cool. Was that a cool experience for you, John, or was it just like, “Oh, my God, this is too much for one day”?

[01:42] John: Don't have kids. Parenthood has just been a real drag. Is that what you meant? If my kids are listening to this, I'm joking. It was weird. I mean, it's definitely one of those things of, it was my first ongoing book. I guess, my only ongoing book. No, I guess, it's not quite true, but my first ongoing comic. It's one of those things, I probably would have liked to have just been able to revel in the excitement of it instead of just being like, “Oh, well, I can't do anything here.”

[02:10] David: Were you holding up your phone to your wife while she's giving birth? Like, “hey, look, honey, they announced it.”

[02:16] John: Something really important. It was also weird because I'd been preparing to write the comic by reading all the old Marvel stuff. So, I had a big stack of Transformers paperbacks in there with me anyway. So, sitting there reading some Simon Furman Transformers, the day a little Jaxis Barber was born. No, I’m kidding. That's not her name. That's been my joke for 12 years.

[02:41] Andrew: We were chatting about the book, and you're like, “Hey, I’ve got to go. My daughter was just born.”

[02:46] John: That's right.

[02:52] Andrew: I’d just sent you one of the concept art drawings of Bumblebee or something.

[02:55] John: Because anybody that hasn't had a baby or maybe had them under different circumstances, a lot of times, there's a lot of downtime for everybody just sitting there and being uncomfortable for everyone. I mean, me less so than my wife, but you're just sitting there. So, it’s good to have something to do.

[03:11] Andrew: It was memorable to me, too, because in my situation, we had just bought a house and Foundation ended, and we'd just moved in, and the first time we sat down in our dining room, and we're having lunch, and I'm like, “Well, what am I going to do now? I need to get a job, I guess,” and literally right as I was thinking that, Andy Schmidt called me and offered me the gig on the ongoing comic, so, it really worked out well.

[03:33] David: So, what were you doing? Foundation? What's that?

[03:37] Andrew: That was the 4-issue miniseries we did before. That we did together. It was one of the movie book prequels.

[03:44] David: So, that Transformer gig, Robots in Disguise, was that the first ongoing for both of you?

[03:49] John: Yeah.

[03:50] David: Wow. You guys really hit it out of the park right out of the gate. That's pretty impressive that Andy put that much faith in both you guys. That’s a lot of faith. I mean, I wouldn’t hire two completely new people to launch an ongoing Transformer book.

[04:10] Andrew: I’d done some sporadic stuff for a couple of years for IDW for Transformers, but nothing like that. The only full series I had done was the four-issue Foundation thing that we did.

[04:18] David: They found you from a contest. Is that how you got in with IDW?

[04:23] Andrew: Mostly. I was doing the fan projects called Mosaic that were one-page fan comic book things that would get released on all the Transformers news sites on the web. The people who organized that in coordination with IDW put together a cover contest on their forums to be the next Transformers covers artist, and 500 people took part in the first round. I got first place in the first few rounds, and then I got in the Top 10 on the third round. That was enough, I guess. If I remember right, Chris Ryall just messaged me one day and he was like, “Hey, do you draw movie Transformers?” And at that point, I had never drawn a movie Transformer, and I sat down quick, did a couple of sketches, and sent them off to him, and I didn't hear back from him for a few weeks, but then in the midst of some of the movie prequels, they just called me up and said, “Hey, can you help us ink of a book,” and then that turned into doing some fill-in pages, and then other things, and then I did some Hasbro stuff, and back and forth, Hasbro, IDW, some other projects. That's what kicked it off, and then the next thing I knew, Andy’s like, “Hey, I liked what you did on all that other stuff, but do you want to do this movie prequel comic with this guy, John Barber? He's alright. He used to work at some other company or something, but for us now.” Anyways, but it worked out, and I guess they liked what we did together enough, and the fans responded well enough that they gave us a chance on the ongoing. That's the long and short of how I got going, I guess.

[05:45] David: So, did you do any other professional comic book work before you did the Transformers stuff?

[05:51] Andrew: I went to school for art and stuff, and always drew. I always wanted to do comics, but at some point, I just gave up when I was like, “that's like being an actor or something. That's unachievable.” I'm like, “that's crazy.” So, I started doing graphic design. I was doing web design. I was doing some art direction, and I was doing work in video game art and stuff, and then I got laid off, got married, and I just sat down and started drawing again, and then within six months, I had gotten reached out to by IDW. So, it really just happened pretty quickly, and it worked out easily for me. I never had to go around and show stuff at conventions, and bug editors and stuff. So, I got pretty lucky how it worked out for me.

[06:29] David: John, I've heard that exact same story about, just got “lucky,” but I don't think any of this is really luck. I think it's more about creating opportunity for yourself and being there when somebody comes to you. When the bell rings, you're ready, and then even more importantly, the ability to hone your skill and continue to act like a professional, which is what keeps you around, and I think there's no secret to being in this industry. Love, dedication, and hard work tends to rise people to the top.

[07:06] Andrew: And if you don't put yourself out there, and if you aren't ready, like you said, when the opportunity knocks, then it's not going to happen, you're not going to be ready for it to happen, and when people ask me advice, I always tell them, too, be professional, meet your deadlines, don't commit to things that you can't do, and even if you get a small project, take it seriously. You never know who's watching it, or who's considering you for some bigger project, things like that. So, don't take things for granted. That's the advice I give people. So, you're right. Being professional goes a long way.

[07:35] David: We were talking to Chris Eliopoulos the other day and he put it really well. He said, “in the industry, you have to be two or three things. Fast, friendly, and good. I think, if you're all three of those things, you’re an employee forever.” I thought that was actually a pretty succinct way of putting it. You said you were into comic books. So, what got you into comic books? Just as, what was your entry point, your gateway drug, for comics?

[08:03] Andrew: I guess, having an older brother that was into that stuff got me hooked to begin with. I’ve got cousins that were a little bit older than me. I grew up in an age where GI Joe and Transformers and things like that were just starting to come out. Of course, Star Wars was really popular, but my cousins had Micronauts and Shogun Warriors toys, and things like that. So, all these strange, foreign-seeming, Japanese robots, and exotic seeming toys, and stuff that were really cool and interesting, and piqued my interest, and my brother would be bringing home comics and stuff, and the first purchase that I remember was probably Secret Wars 8, when Spider Man gets a black costume. We were in a grocery store, and it had the spinner rack, and I picked that one out and bought it for myself, and that was my first purchase that I remember.

[08:43] David: Is it still near mint?

[08:47] Andrew: It's bagged in a long box in my basement somewhere, but I don't know what condition it is, to be honest. I haven't looked at it in a while. That was my first purchase, and then other early ones that I remember that may have come out sooner, maybe my memory’s messed up a little bit, but I also remember that issue of Transformers where Spider Man shows up. That was one of my first things, but I don't know if I went and bought that and picked it up myself, but then GI Joe came out, and all that stuff. So, that was my entry point. That time frame, and I think John and I talked, and he started around the same time getting comics.

[09:20] John: Way before you. Secret Wars #3. What's funny, Mason Rabinowitz, our editor on Sigma, on our comic, he actually started reading comics with Secret Wars #4. A bunch of times, made jokes about how he's the new guy and he doesn't really understand comics because he hasn't been around as long as I have.

[09:42] Andrew: You were that guy in high school who's like “man, I listened to Nirvana when they put out Bleach.

[09:48] John: I remember when Kurt Cobain was the boyfriend of the lady from Hole. I totally remember.

[09:58] David: Nice. So, were you always collecting after that point there? Did you take a break in college or anything?

[10:05] Andrew: I was hardcore about it until the early 90s. I had subscriptions to Transformers and an Amazing Spider Man that I got as gifts, and it was right at the perfect time where all the McFarlane stuff was kicking off, and when he first got on the book. So, I have all of those issues and everything, and I was really into Spider Man. I was really into Transformers, really into GI Joe, Marvel stuff. DC not as much, but definitely Batman and things like that. Sorry, names slipping my mind right now. An artist that was popular at the time on Batman.

[10:39] John: Jim Aparo.

[10:40] Andrew: Yes, he was really active on Batman around that time, but yeah, I was really into it until I got into college, and then I went to art school, and I was too serious for comics, and I was too artsy and stuff, and I thought I was going to be a painter, and fine artist, and stuff.

I got out of college, and every once in a while, I dipped my toes back into it. I worked at a place that had a lot of graphic designers and we were all artists. People would have Transformers sitting on the shelves and things, and we'd all be like, “I remember that.” We’d go see big tentpole movies when they came out, like the new Star Wars movies and stuff, and we'd all hang out and go to comic bookshops, and around that time was when DreamWave launched the new Transformers book and I think Devil’s Due had GI Joe, and then Civil War came out with Marvel. I remember reading that. I was in and out of it throughout the years, and then really got back into it around mid-2000s. Like I said, it wasn't too much longer until I started drawing again and got actually working in industry.

[11:35] John: Yeah, I don't think I knew all the history of that. What painting were you into in your art school?

[11:41] Andrew: I always liked Kandinsky, Gustav Klimt.

[11:46] John: The graphic design ones.

[11:48] Andrew: I grew up really liking Renaissance artists, like Leonardo and all those guys, not just because I like turtles and things like that, but I was really genuinely figure-drawing and trying to get perspective, and all that stuff.

[12:00] David: That's the place to go. The Renaissance is the place to go for that. Figure drawing and perspective. That's where you go.

[12:07] Andrew: I'm good at, I think, drawing that stuff, but painting, no. So, when I was painting, I was veering more towards the color and composition in and of itself, and thinking about abstract expressionism and more modern art stuff, and I always really liked Egon Schiele, and people like that, who had such a good style to their stuff, but also, had a good understanding, obviously, of anatomy and figure drawing, and things like that, and I never quite got there, but that was what I would like to have done.

[12:35] David: It's never too late.

[12:36] Andrew: No, of course. I always want to get back more into that stuff, if I get the chance to.

[12:40] John: Finish a few more issues first.

[12:47] David: Tell me the story, guys, about Signa, about how that came about. John, you mentioned it a little bit the other day, but I'd love to hear Andrew’s version of how that came about.

[12:54] John: If his is something other than I came up with everything.

[12:59] David: He's lying. I know.

[13:000] John: Can’t trust this guy.

[13:03] Andrew: I’m only involved because I know what happened on that one night. John's heard me tell my version of the story before. Is that how you remember it?

[13:13] John: Yeah, I was joking. I didn't really take credit for it. I know you don't listen to the podcast.

[13:19] Andrew: Honestly, I haven’t yet. I’ve been meaning to. I have been wanting to.

[13:26} David: We literally have 25 episodes out by now. So, if you haven't listened, it's okay. I'm only slightly insulted.

[13:32] John: It’ll take you just slightly more than a full day to catch up if you don’t sleep.

[13:37] David: Is this what we do to people that we interview now, John? We just bash them about not listening to the podcast?

[13:44] John: There's a ratio of respect to how long you've known somebody, that I've entered into the wrong vortex of it. Totally. We started talking about what became Signa so long ago. It was before I'd come back to IDW. It was before I left IDW.

[14:06] Andrew: I remember, when you were leaving the first time, you called me up, No, when you took the job of Editor in Chief, you said, “we can still work on this.”

[14:16] John: So I thought, yeah. It's actually not really any innuendo. Things just didn't align.

[14:23] David: You might have been a little busy.

[14:25] John: Yeah. Back on track, you had an idea?

[14:28] Andrew: Well, from what I remember, I'd always wanted to write and stuff, and try being creative on that end, and I always liked writing, and I always wanted to tell stories like that in that way. So, I pitched a few things now and then to IDW, and I remember, I pitched  something to IDW when John was an editor, and he was like, “I like it. I like the tone of it, but I know what's planned, and it's not going to really fit in with our schedule and things.” So, he said, “Well, hey, why don't we take the core of this and build our own universe around it?” And he's like, “there's no reason you can’t still tell the general story,” and that turned into what became this over a series of iterations and changes and restarts and pauses, and every once in a while, after a year or two, I'd hear back from John and be like, “Hey, I still really want to do that. Let's get back into that,” and then we dive back in, and then we do a five-page sample and then pitch it, and then get notes and then not follow up on those notes, and let it sit, and then get back into it, but overall, I think certain elements of it have stayed true to what we originally imagined, and if we get talking about the story and stuff here, I guess I can talk about what that was.

[15:37] David: Why don't you tell us? Give us the high concept pitch? How did you sell it?

[15:42] Andrew: Initially, it was going to be this bounty hunter character gets sent after a Transformer that's really powerful, this big powerful Transformer that's lost his purpose, because at that point, the Transformers war had ended, and all the different people were finding their new allegiances and where they fit in, and what was going on in the Transformers world, where they were going to fit in, in this new world. So, this big, powerful destructive Transformer, where is he now? What's he doing? He doesn't have anything, any purpose, and I have this idea of this bounty hunter tracking him down, and you think he'd be this big, violent character that's going to kick this bounty hunters butt. Instead, he's aimless and doesn't really have any reason to attack this bounty hunter guy, so they ended up becoming friends and going on this adventure together through space. So, the elements that are still there. Our main character, we call her a freelancer, but she's this young inexperienced outlaw character in this collapsed, post-apocalyptic vision of the future, comes across this, I think it was a living mech character that comes into being, and they become friends, and they basically, I guess, you'd say, have an adventure together, and they're the main characters of our story. So, that element of it is still there, in terms of a bounty hunter-type character and a big powerful robot.

[17:03] John: In terms of this post-apocalyptic stuff, though, it's spacefaring the post-apocalyptic, not just Mad Max kind of stuff. We're off in outer space, not outer space, I guess, but the space itself.

[17:16] David: Humans have populated the solar system.

[17:19] John: Yes. Parts of it.

[17:21] Andrew: And in our story, there's no version of faster than light travel as of yet, so people haven't been able to leave the solar system. So, it's not aliens and hyperspace and light speed through different worlds and universes and stuff. Everything's taking place within.

[17:36] David: sssThat rule within your book, at least here in the beginning, really grounds the beasts for me. I'm able to suspend my belief for the rest of it because I've got that rule to hang on. So, I really liked that about the piece, in particular. There was always the way Asimov has got his three laws that really grounds everything, all of his stories in a way that just makes it all work. I liked that about your piece.

[18:00] Andrew: Well, yeah, we talked a lot about hard science fiction concepts and how difficult faster than light travel would really be, and whether it's even possible that we've shared articles and podcasts and books and stuff about this thing that. John, I mean, we talked a lot about how realistic we wanted this to be versus science fiction comic book logic.

[18:20] John: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think it's fair to say, we both have a comic book creator’s interest in science, where we both like space stuff, we both like the real science of the stuff, we both like playing with that stuff in the world.

[18:33] David: The space that you've created is so great, Andrew. It's so imaginative, and I'm curious to know, what were your influences around that? What were you pulling from for those visuals, those opening pages, in particular? It's just wow on wow, on wow, in terms of, there’s so much heavy lifting going on, in terms of world building and creating. What were your inspirations? What were you looking at, or what were you thinking about when you were diving into those first several pages?

[19:06] Andrew: Thank you. I was thinking a lot about, rather than a space Western, I was always thinking more of industrial revolution, mining and labor disputes, and underground abandoned mining facilities, and steel foundries, and things like that, and for that opening sequence, I was thinking of this old factory that would have been manned by all these different laborers sweating away at a certain point in our imagined future history. So, I was really trying to go for gritty and industrial, and machinery, and taking cues from a lot of the details that John had put in the script describing the place. We did co-plot the broad strokes and everything, but John did a lot of the heavy lifting on the writing of that sequence and establishing the environment they're in and everything. So, I really pulled from what he wrote and what I had in mind for how the book was going to look, and I pulled from a lot of references, like I said, like industrial facilities and old factories and abandoned photos of old, rusty metal places and steel plants and car factories, and things like that. I was trying as much as I could to pull from that stuff rather than Star Trek or Star Wars, or any other science fiction thing, because I didn't want it to look like that. I wanted it to look like it fit into the world that we were creating.

[20:29] David: I think you did a great job. It really does feel like I lived in world. That’s near future, which I think is what you guys are going for. Visually, and from the reading, it comes across.

[20:41] John: The thing that I think is different about this than a lot of the Transformer stuff. I mean, not that there wasn't a ton of design that you had to do on Transformers, because there was, but this is one of those things where everything that, we both mentioned it, everything needs to get designed. There's no “they reach for a doorknob and it opens.” It's “What are those shaped like? How do those work?” It's like that with absolutely every little piece of everything. So, yeah, it's a lot of work on top of all the regular work that an artist has to do, especially the artist has to do with the stuff I sometimes throw at Andrew, I think, and then the stuff you build out yourself, too, because that opening sequence, it was a lot of that. That was notes that you sent to me. He was like, “Hey, I have this great idea for a chase that goes boom, boom, boom.”

[21:29] Andrew: Yeah, definitely. I had an idea of action beats and things like that, in that sequence.

[21:33] David: We’re talking about the Sigma project, which I'm really excited about. I think people are going to love what you guys did. Curious, just for the Transformer fans out there that are probably listening to this, what were some of the highlights that you guys had working together? Were there any moments where you're like, “I hate this guy.”? No. Oh, wow, that is a long scroll. That's a tome.

[22:04] John: Is that how you spell that word?

[22:07] David: Were there any highlights where you guys felt like, “hey, we knocked it out of the park on that one,” or just particular moments where something clicked in a way that you both, or individually, either one, I'm curious to know what the overall experience was, or a couple of the highlights of the experience, because I certainly don't expect to remember 12 years worth of collaboration.

[22:27] Andrew: John, do you want to go first?

[22:29] David: Andrew, I say both, but I'm just trying to be polite. Really, I don't want to hear from John.

[22:38] Andrew: Well, look, I think for both of us, just having that #1 come out, where, like I said, I'd worked on a bunch of projects where I fill in on pages, inked, or I do a a cover, but I guess, Foundation was the first time that we work together. We put out books that I did all the art for, and I did the covers from start to finish. It was all me and it was out on a shelf, and so, that was a proud moment, but even more so, I think when RiD come out like that when that #1 hit shelves and had a great full cover, and I had done the cover, and I did the full issue and for John, he had written the whole thing, and we had all this future to look forward to, in terms of it being an ongoing, and how much we were planning to do. I think that was definitely the highlight, as far as working with John. I don't remember the first time I really noticed this but I always appreciated how he’d give me room to do what he knew I could do. Certain points where he knew he didn't have to describe something to every little detail. He could just say “Andrew, do something like this, or there's a battle, or it's a double-page spread, and these people are fighting. Take it from there.” He always knew where to leave me to do my thing and where he had to rein me in and tell me specific things, and I don't remember one moment where I was like “this is working,” but I do remember appreciating that a lot.

[23:56] John: I mean, the story I always tell me, not that you'd want to hear from me, but stories that I always tell, was super early on when we were doing Foundation, I was also writing, I’ve mentioned on this podcast before, I was writing two other movie adaptations, and this was my first actual limited series writing. I mean, I'd been editing for a long time but all that just goes out the window when you start writing, I guess, and so, it was all of a sudden working with three totally different artists who are all coming at things from different directions, but I remember at one point having a panel where movie universes, that's movie Megatron is saying saying something about freedom, but he’s saying freedom like it's a disgusting word to him. He doesn't like it. I remember writing it and being “I'm sure I'm going to have to go back in and add some dialogue or make Megatron say “freedom, which sucks” or something, just really explain it because you're not going to be able to emote sarcasm with movie design Megatron, but Andrew did, and I just saw it and was like, “Oh, he can tell. You could see the disgust on that face and it's not an easy face to do that with. So, I realized from that point, people will talk about leaving space of “I'm not going to write an action scene or something and let the artists deal with that,” and it might be fun for the artist, but there's also a little bit of the writer just didn't write six pages or something.

The thing that really hit me with Andrew was the parts where, when the characters are acting, I would write things like “RC is lying,” or something like that. Just talking about the motivations behind the characters, because his acting in those characters would come through your acting and his characters would come through, and that was always one of the biggest things for me, is your ability to pull out emotion from characters that are not easy for everybody to do that on. We were lucky with the Transformers artist, there were other artists that were really good at that, too, but there was a thing just blew me away and your understanding of the characters, too, not only the franchise sense, but in “here's what we're doing with them. Here's where they are.”

[25:54] Andrew: I think one of my favorite moments like that was, he's close on Wheeljack, and he turns and winks at the camera or something like that, or smirks, I think it was. I think he said, turns and smirks towards the camera, and I was like, for people who don't know, Transformers Wheeljack doesn't have a mouth. He's barely got eyes and a nose. His whole face is covered with a face plate, and how do you do that? So, working that out was fun.

[26:21] David: Yeah, that sounds like a challenge.

[26:24] John: There are times, I remember reading Mark Miller writing something where he takes a bite out of a sandwich, and then, puts his eye back to the sniper scope or something, as a one-panel thing, and it was Mark to John Romita Jr. It wasn't that Mark didn't know you couldn't do multiple things in the panel. It was just that Mark knew John was going to pick the right thing to do.

[26:44] David: Oh, interesting.

[26:45] John: So, every once in a while, it'd be things like that. Other times, I'd be like, “I just do not remember that that character doesn't have a mouth when I'm writing that panel.”

[26:54] Andrew: With John, I've never had to worry about, I worked with some writers who were just getting started, or you can tell they hadn't written a lot of things, and they’d have things where they're five characters on a panel, and each one has something to say. So, you have to show them all, and then the next panel would focus on two characters, but those weren't beside each other before, and then you'd have to go to another panel where, in order to tell it in the right order of their speaking and everything, you'd have to flip it across the line of sight and everything. So, it gets confusing, storytelling wise, and things like that, where you have to point these things out to people, but I never had to worry about that with John.

[27:28] David: I think that's the David Hedgecock method of writing, what you've just described. I’ve got no idea what I'm doing.

[27:36] John: A big part of our run was, we started writing everything Marvel style, where I would just send a plot to Andrew. Sometimes it'd be dialogue, or sometimes it'd be placeholder dialogue.

[27:46] David: That was on RID, you guys would do that?

[27:48] John: I think we started on RID. Yeah, no, we totally did. Of course.

[27:51] Andrew: Well, that way, you can just go get a coffee or something. You could just write up a few lines. You didn't have to worry about it too much.

[27:56] John: It was great.

[27:57] Andrew: Actually, I think, wasn't it after we went to Earth and we started Season Two or whatever you want to call it? I think it was then.

[28:06] John: I think so, too.

[28:07] Andrew: And that was a lot of me. I wanted to do that.

[28:10] David: I was going to ask. Was that a request by you, you wanted to work in that method?

[28:15] Andrew: I think, I still remember one time at San Diego Comic Con, we went and sat outside on the back patio area, talk about ideas for what we were going to do once we took the characters back to Earth, and I think it was in those discussions, in that era, where we've been working together for a while, and John was like, “Well, what would you want to draw? What kind of things would excite you?” That kind of stuff, and I think that's where it came up, but I don't think it was like, “hey, could I do this?” I think it just came about organically.

[28:42] David: You were like, “I would like to draw some robots, please.”

[28:46] Andrew: The reason I want to draw comics and not just illustrate other things is, I like to tell stories, and the storytelling compels me. So, I like taking part in that as much as I could.

[28:59] David: So, Transformers obviously has been the bulk of your work, but I know that, Andrew, you have a particular affinity, I think, for GI Joe. You said that's one of the things that you were collecting early on, and I know you had a chance to draw some of that. How was that? What was that experience like for you?

[29:14] Andrew: Yeah, that's probably my first fandom. I mean, I'd seen Star Wars, and I was really into it, and but that was, at least at that point, I'd only had a few of the toys and that kind of thing, and it wasn't something that came out while I was old enough to realize it. So, yeah, I was into GI Joe from the start, and I always wanted to work on that in some bigger capacity, and IDW had that shared universe for a while. I got to work on it some, and the characters would pop up here and there. That was great, but yeah, I mean, I think it was actually thanks to John. I think John nudged Tom a bit about me being available and wanting to work on it. Tom hired me. Tom Waltz was the editor on GI Joe, and he hired me to work on a five-part storyline that would involve a new character. So, I mean, that was great, and then I did a few more issues after that, sporadically, until the license change. I'd grown up, like I said, reading it. So, just thinking of drawing in the same continuity as this book that I've read, for what, 40 years, and as a kid, I never would have thought that I'd be working with Larry Hama and drawing origin stories of Snake Eyes, because I always love that more realistic side of it almost, where the backstories of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow in Vietnam and all that realistic take on those characters. So, getting to tell a more involved backstory of those characters, set in that time period, that really built on the mythology of it, was really exciting. That was one of the stories that I did. In fact, I think IDW put out a little trade of some of Larry's favorite stories, five or six issues, and that was one of them. So, that was exciting.

[30:52] David: Oh, nice. That's cool. We were talking today, and I was looking at some of those covers that you did for that series, and man, some good stuff in there, and some really great covers.

[31:01] Andrew: Thanks. I haven't actually kept too much of the art I've done. I usually sell my pages and things, but one or two of those GI Joe covers and an early RID cover some of the few things that I've held on to.

[31:12] David: The original art market for the GI Joe stuff is pretty hot. That stuff goes pretty quick.

[31:19] Andrew: I think I’ve actually literally sold every single interior page. Every cover, except for one, and I have a few people are like, “hey, if that person who bought that cover ever says they want to sell it again, let me know, can you talk to them and see if I can buy it for them,” and stuff like that.

[31:34] David: I'm not surprised. I've heard from several artists who have worked on GI Joe. Larry Hama’s GI Joe, in particular.

[31:40] Andrew: Silent Interlude, of course, is a huge issue for anyone who grew up in that time period, and everyone who loves comics, and when we did the 40th anniversary of GI Joe, for people who don't know, we did a cover version of that issue where a different artists redrew every page in their own style, and I contributed to that, and that was really exciting, because I remember thinking “next year is going to be the 40th anniversary. That'd be really cool to take part in something to mark that. It's good timing that I'm working on it now,” and I did get to, but as far as original art, I had a whole bunch of people reach out trying to get the page that I did for that, and I told each of them I wanted to keep it for myself. So, that is one thing I kept, too, but anyway, just to add your point, yeah, there was a lot of interest in those pages, and everybody I talked to who contributed to that said people came to them looking for those pages.

[32:32] David: Yeah, not surprised. Since we're talking about original art and selling your original art, have you had an uptick in interest in your Transformers stuff, or have you just sold that stuff as you've gone along and don't have a lot of it? I'm just thinking, with the new Transformers over at Skybound, I'm wondering if there's some obvious renewed interest in Transformers. You being such a prolific and fantastic Transformer artist, I'm wondering if you're seeing any more heat on your original art than you've experienced.

[33:03] Andrew: Not really, only because it's pretty steady. I'll fairly often have people reach out to me, say, “Hey, do you sell your original art?” And I have to tell them yes, but I've sold most of it, and I can see if I still have anything they're interested in, but I just get it regularly enough that I haven't noticed an uptick. I have however, had people recently ask for commissions of my take on the modern stories or versions of characters, that kind of thing, but what I do find interesting about it is, John, when did RID become Optimus Prime? Is that 2015/2016? Something like that, but we haven't been on the main book for such a long time, and people still approach me as if I'm one of the main Transformers artists. The interest is still there from our book, people still read our book, they still think about it, they still come to me and say, “Hey, I'm reading it. Can you sell this page? Or do this commission,” or that kind of thing. It's amazing how it lasts.

[33:59] David: It's not surprising. I mean, I feel like that was one of the things that IDW was, I don't know about the current IDW company, I don't really have a lot of affiliation or association with, but when I was there, and I think John probably would agree, we were so good at repackaging stuff and making sure however you wanted to consume a book, it was there for you in that manner, and not to toot our horn or anything, but I'm not surprised to hear that people are still discovering Transformers, because there's a lot of different books out there and a lot of different collections and stuff, and ways for people to have access to that old material still.

[34:34] Andrew: Hopefully the book was good, too.

[34:36] David: That, I think, goes without saying.

[34:39] Andrew: I haven't seen a huge uptick since that book came out, but I think only because it's been there ever since anyway.

[34:47] David: I know that one of your primary focuses now is Signa, as we've been talking about. Are you guys working Marvel style on that one as well?

[34:55] John: Yeah, this one's definitely Andrew and I plotting this thing. It isn't like you're getting a script and you don't know where it's coming from, but Mason, I think was really helpful. I mean, I think he helped save the story part of issue 2, my part of issue 2, but I think it's really good, but I think that came down to some of his notes, but we’re doing it all Marvel style, I’ll try a plot with the gist of what's going on. I learned a little of that from the way Larry Hama would break it down. It's not something you encounter a lot, and that's definitely how Larry writes, and looking at the way he did it, where he more or less, breaks it down, where there's a line break between each story beat panel, as long as it works. I think I've mentioned on here, comics are so much about pacing, to me, but I love letting it be the pacing that Andrew is setting up. I mean, we've worked together for so long, I'm always surprised when something comes in, in the sense that it's a cool way that you've gone about doing it or something, but I think we know each other, in terms of, we know how to cover each other or know how to make this stuff work better.

[36:10] Andrew: This whole thing I think has been very collaborative. A lot of times, we would just get on Zoom or something and just chat about ideas and throw things back and forth, and pitch things to each other, and then get to a point where we had the broad strokes of the plot worked out, and then John will sit down and write up a script, or a Marvel style plot of it, an actual page by page plot, and then I might say, “hey, what about this? What if this instead,” and then John will take a day or two where he hates me, and then he'll be like “hey, that’s actually okay. Maybe I'll use it.” So, it's been very collaborative and back and forth. I think of it as we co-plotted it, and then John's doing the scripting action, “writing,” and I'm doing the drawing. So, how I'm looking at it.

[36:52] John: I don't mean to seem detached from it, but you'll ask me a question about “Well, how did you see that happening?” I'm like, “I saw you figuring it out.”

[37:06] David: I like that answer. I saw you figuring it out. That’s how I saw it.

[37:14] John: There's definitely part of “should this character look like this?” I'm like, “Well, it's your character.” I mean, hopefully, I don't withhold that when it’s useful. The author of a comic is the writer and the artist combined, not anything else, and I don't know, it's like being in a band. I mean, we talked about that a lot. We're into some of the same bands and stuff.

[37:36] David: I'm going to digress a little bit, but I think we've gotten into a situation in comic books lately, and here I go shaking my old man fist. We have lost the thread a little bit, and mass market comics, in general, are allowing editorial and the writers drive the bus. I don't think that's actually what we should be doing. We should be allowing the artists to drive the bus. The artist is the director, and the artist is the one that should be making a lot of the final decisions, within reason, but that should be where things come from. It should be the artist that says “visually, it's going to be this,” and I think we've gotten away from that as a community and as a business model, and there's a bunch of reasons for that, that I don't think are good, but we’ve got to get back to that, and so, I think that working Marvel style, and working in the way that you guys are working, sounds like the way it should be done to me. I think that's exactly how it's supposed to happen. I think, John, give Andrew a bunch of ideas and get the hell out of the way. You’ve got this fantastic artist who's spending hours and hours thinking about this thing in a way that you aren't, because you can't, so let that guy do the heavy lifting. Let him figure it out. I think that's brilliant. That's exactly how comics should be made.

[38:56] John: Yeah, I think there are different cases for different things. One of the things, I always like that band analogy, and I remember Eddie Campbell saying something a long time ago along those lines, and I think I really internalized it, and I might be twisting Eddie Campbell's words. I don't want to blame him for this if I'm getting it wrong. This is the way I internalized it, but I remember him saying that it isn't one-size-fits-all. I think, if you have something like Neil Gaiman's Sandman, that's Neil Gaiman's Sandman. It's like that, in the sense that if you buy a Miles Davis album, it's a Miles Davis album. If John Coltrane is on Miles Davis’s album, it's still a Miles Davis album. That doesn't make him not John Coltrane. That just means that Miles is leading it. There could be another John Coltrane album. It's a John Coltrane album, and maybe even Miles Davis plays on that, or something. There's back and forth to it. I would maybe go the other way and say Spawn was Macfarlane’s thing, no matter who was writing it. That was the primary focus on it. So, I think there’s different sides to it. I feel like, one of the things it's the time happened with comics is, we've lost one of the things that makes comics work the best, in an effort to fit in with the world of movies and TV, which is that personality that comes through from the artist. At this point in my life right now, I am perfectly content with the idea of us making six issues of Signa a year, or five issues a year, whatever, instead of there being 10 issues a year or 12 issues a year, six of which aren't drawn by Andrew. That obviously wouldn't be the case at Signa, but I mean, doing a comic like that.

[40:29] David: That's exactly what I'm talking. Andrew, as an artist, what do you think?

[40:36] Andrew: It's funny. For some reason, when you guys were talking about that, I think about what it was like working on GI Joe, where, like you said Larry's plots do leave a lot of room for the artists to do a Marvel style interpretation, but at the same time, we're not having any ownership of it, in a way. it's not like it's been our book from the start. We're just the artist of the time working on a book that's been around for 40 years. So, that's a weird in between point, but then at the same time, I don't mean this to be judgmental or anything, but there's a lot of really talented artists out there who can draw like I can never draw, but at the same time, they don't focus on story. They'll draw out their pages in a way where they know what's going to sell it because it's like, “let's make this a splash page, or let's make this huge moment.” I mean, this moment is not a huge moment, a huge part of the page, because it's going to look great on the page and sell really well. So, I think sometimes storytelling also suffers because of those commercial interests, which is understandable because the artist needs to make the money, too, and pay the bills, but I don't know. There's that element, too, where just in relation to what you're talking about, the focus on the writer and everything. It's hard to find that happy medium, and I think we're really lucky in this situation where we can work on a book that we both really want to work on, and we can really both contribute our strengths to it, and I think that hopefully that will really pay off for the reader. Just to bring it back on to this, I think this is a rare situation where we're able to really just tell the story we want to tell and use our strengths to do it.

[41:59] John: And we've really spent a lot of time with both of us coming up with backstory and this stuff. We've got a history of this world to get to this point. A lot of this stuff just isn't going to show up in the comic, but it's stuff that we know that it's how we got here and why people are acting certain ways, or whatever. That you'll see more of as the series goes on, as we get more into the society that exists. I mean, issue one’s our cold open action sequence that leads you into the end of the story, and I think it's a really rich world that we've developed, and I don't think it's the main Signa book if it isn't both of us doing it, but at the same time, I could see a world where Andrew’s writing a story that somebody else is drawing or something. There's room in the world to add to that. Even were this a tremendous success, we would decide we'd be doing a ton of spin-off books, but I mean, it'd be fun to do a story in the back of a book that somebody else does or Andrew writing or drawing something or whatever.

[42:51] Andrew: You could have things like that, other stories to tell.

[42:55] John: Yeah, I'm saying this from the fully most replaceable person on the creative team, because one of the funny things about this book is, everyone working on this comic has professionally written comics. Andrew has. Our letterer’s Chris Maori. He's certainly written a lot of comics. Rhonda Patterson is our colorist. She's also, written comics, and all are very good writers.

[43:22] David: Like I said last time, you're the editor, so you're safe.

[43:24] Andrew: But you've written the most.

[43:32] David: Andrew, are there any other projects that you're working on besides Signa right now that you can talk about?

[43:35] Andrew: I'm always working on other stuff on the side. Right now, one thing that has been announced is I'm doing a 50th anniversary of Mechagodzilla. So, it's a Godzilla Mechagodzilla book, and that's something I'm working in between issues of this. So, that's my current full-time project right now.

[43:50] David: Is that a one shot?

[43:53] Andrew: It's an oversized one shot.

[43:55] David: You were made for that.

[43:56] John: Who’s writing that one?

[43:57] Andrew: Rich Dewick?

[43:58] John: Yeah, that's right. That's funny. I've known rich for years.

[44:02] David: I love Rich. I don't know when it's going to happen, but Rich is going to be the next big thing. He's going to be on big books at some point in the next couple years, in my opinion.

[44:14] Andrew: I was looking at his portfolio, whatever you call it for a writer, and it looked like he already was. I mean, he's got some pretty good titles on his belt..

[44:21] David: I mean, he's going to be the regular guy on Avengers doing some big mega crossover at Marvel or DC or whatever that looks like. I really do think that Rich has that in his bones somewhere. I think it's just a matter of time for him to work it out, and he's not that guy quite yet, but I really do feel like that guy is going to be that.

[44:48] Andrew: He's been great to work with, so far, my limited experience so far, but only good things to say, so far.

[44:54] John: And funnily enough, going back to both of us being hired to work on the books by Andy Schmidt, Rich was another Andy Schmidt, he was a comics experience guy when I first met him.

[45:03] David: Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[45:05] John: He did a comic called Gutter Magic that he self published and reprinted later.

[45:13] Andrew: I've got another thing I'm working on. Much smaller thing but something I'm very excited about, but I don't think I can talk about it yet.

[45:21] David: You can talk about it. Nobody's going to listen to this. Yeah, not even you.

[45:29] John: Only 33% of the people on this on this podcast listen to it.

[45:35] David: No, you don’t.

[45:37] John: I missed some when I was away. I’m one behind.

[45:41] David: John and I have an approach to the podcasts are very different. John's like, we do it, and then he listens to it once and he's good, and I obsess over it, and listen like, “oh, that's stutter,” but I don't ever actually say anything to our editor. I just keep it all to myself. So, I'm just tortured. That's it. The podcast is just this torture piece for me. Every week, I listen to the sound of my stupid voice, and I think about all the ways that I wish I wasn't talking, but I don't say anything to anybody, and then we put it out into the world.

[46:14] Andrew: I've never listened back to things like this, because I just can't stand to listen myself and the stupid things I say. “I shouldn't have said that or I should have said this.”

[46:23] David: That's me every week for six months now.

[46:25] Andrew: Or “I missed that golden opportunity to make this witty comment.”

[46:29] David: Alright, so how can we find out about Signa, Andrew? What have we got to do to get on board for this thing? What's the plan?

[46:37] Andrew: Well, we have a handy little page set up where we're collecting emails to get updates and things, so if people are interested, they can see when we're going to have the next issue out or have some art to share or have some exciting news.

[46:50] David: We'll post the link to the sign up for the email, but also, I think you'll be able to sign up from pugworldwide.com. Is that right, John?

[46:56] John: We're recording this a little bit in the past, as you listen to it. Like an ancient mech that one might uncover underground, we're returning to life now in your ears, Kickstarter is live right now, so you can go over to pugworldwide.com or just go to Kickstarter and look for Signa. Don't sign up for insurance.

[47:17] David: So, people will be able to, from listening to this podcast, go straight over to Kickstarter and see sample art from the book and see all the different covers and stuff that you’ve got going. That's awesome.

[47:27] John: Yeah, We've got pretty cool cover by Mr. Andrew Griffith, of course. We've also got a nice one by Alex Milne and Josh Perez.

[47:36] Andrew: Who any Transformers fan should know.

[47:40] John: Yes. Who else do we have?

[47:41] Andrew: Chrissie Zullo, who is a great artist with a very distinctive style.

[47:44] John: Andrew and I both like dogs. If you've read our Transformer stuff, you might have picked up on that. If you haven't, we introduced a dog character into it, that was based on well, if you follow this podcast, my late dog, and the time we switched it around. We've got another dog character coming in. He actually doesn't appear in issue one but he is on the cover and on Chrissie's cover. I know I'm talking over you, Andrew.

[48:06] Andrew: So, he will be on my late dog. So, we've been through it.

[48:11] John: We've got a cool Tom Scioli cover as well. I believe we've announced as a stretch goal, I don't know if we will have made it yet, a 3D version of the Tom Scioli cover. Red and blue, put on glasses, and look at the cover in 3D edition. Along some other cool stretch goals Andrew will do some sketches or wash a car, I think.

[48:39] Andrew: Whatever it takes. I’ll tattoo your favorite face on myself or whatever.

[48:50] David: Man, this is exciting. I'm excited for this one. I'm stoked. This is the first I’m hearing about the cover stuff. So, Alex Milne. I can't wait to see what he did. That's fantastic. Tom Scioli, that's exciting, too, and then Andrew, I have seen all the interiors, most of it without color, and the interior art’s just great, it’s fully realized. I'm a fan of your work, and I think this is definitely some of the some of the best stuff I've seen from you. You always show new levels of ability and maturity in your art with each new project I see from you, but this one really does. Man, what a lot of heavy lifting you've done there, and you can tell it's a labor of love for you, and it's just showing through on every page. I'm super excited for this one, guys. Congratulations. I'm sure that Kickstarter is going to do great, and I'm very excited, of course, as soon as this podcast is over, on the day that it's available, which is today if you're listening now, I'm going to go sign up myself.

[49:51] Andrew: Thank you. Well, the first issue of this also has the benefit of having had a lot of lead time, so I was able to put a lot of time into the art.

[49:57] David: I think we did a good business today. What do you think?

[49:59] John: I think so. Thanks for having us on, David.

[50:03] Andrew: Thanks for having me.

[50:04] David: Yeah, Andrew, thanks for joining us. Real pleasure. Nice to see you. Nice to talk to you, as always, and so, again for Signa, pugworldwide.com, and go to Kickstarter and type in Signa. Also, I wanted to remind everybody that likes and reviews are super appreciated, five-star reviews and likes. Please give us a like and share so we can get ourselves up in the algorithms for the podcasts, all that stuff. I'm starting to learn a little bit of that, and I'm like, “Oh, that's a thing that actually is kind of important.” So, help us out, people. Thanks.

[50:38] Andrew: Can I point out we also have been creating some social media accounts. So, can we share those on your website or something so that people can look at those? I don't have the exact handles and everything right now.

[50:47] David: Well prepared, then.

[50:49] Andrew: Yeah, I wasn't thinking about that ahead of time.

[50:50] David: Make sure you check thecornerbox.club and check the episode that we've got all the links for the social medias and the Kickstarter link and pugworldwide.com will be there as well. So, if you're having trouble finding anything, well, you'll get it there. I think that's it.

[51:05] John: Thank you for joining us, Andrew.

[51:06] David: Yeah, thanks.

[51:07] Andrew: Thanks a lot.

[51:08] David: Well, thanks, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time on The Corner Box.

[51:12] John: Bye.

Thanks for joining us, and please subscribe, tell your friends about us, leave a review and comments. Check out www.cornerbox.club for updates, and come back and join us next week for another episode of The Corner Box with John and David.