The Corner Box S1Ep33 - The Kyle Starks Interview: Imposter Syndrome

[00:00] Intro: Welcome to The Corner Box, where we talk about comics as an industry and an art form. You never know where the discussion will go or who will show up to join host David Hedgecock and John Barber. Between them, they've spent decades writing, drawing, lettering, coloring, editing, editor-in-chiefing, and publishing comics. If you want to know the behind-the-scenes secrets, the highs and lows, the ins and outs of the best artistic medium in the world, then listen in and join us on The Corner Box.

[00:31] David Hedgecock: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Corner Box. I'm one of your regular hosts, David Hedgecock, and with me as always,

[00:38] John Barber: John Barber. Far from alone this week.

[00:40] David: We've got a quite the cast. Our semi-regular guest, Eisner Award nominated Dave Baker's also with us today. Hi, Dave.

[00:48] Dave Baker: Hello, hello.

[00:49] David: And our special guests for the day, today we have a true luminary of the comic world: Kyle Starks, joining us.

[00:57] Kyle Starks: Thanks for having me, guys. Very kind of you.

[00:59] David: Hailing from Southern Indiana, Kyle is a three-time Eisner Award nominee whose career has left an indelible mark on the landscape of comics. He's best recognized for his impactful tenure as the primary writer and an occasional artist for Oni Press’s Rick and Morty, and more recently, for bringing to life the engrossing Peacemaker Tries Hard series for DC Comics. Kyle’s exceptional talent in blending humor with compelling storytelling earned him Eisner nominations for his works, SexCastle, Rock Candy Mountain, and I Hate This Place, all celebrated for their best humor publication. His current projects include Pine and Merrimac from Boom! Studios, and fans can eagerly anticipate Karate Prom, coming this summer from First Second! Kyle’s diverse body of work also boasts collaborations on Skybound’s Assassin Nation with Erica Henderson, 6 Sidekicks of Trigger Keaton with Chris Schweitzer, and contributions to Marvel Comics Marvel Unleashed, and DC Comics Harley Quinn: Black, White, and Redder, among others. His creative genius has also graced Wild Dog in Batman: Brave and The Bold, Dynamite Comics Mars Attacks with Chris Schweitzer, again, and Oni Press’s Dead of Winter. Kyle’s journey in the comic book industry is nothing short of inspiring, and I can't wait to talk with him. Kyle, welcome to the show.

[02:08] Kyle: Thanks for having me. That is a good intro. I'll take it.

[02:10] David: So, Kyle, the thing that we'd to do with everybody when they come on is to find out, what was the first thing that really got them hooked on comics? What was that first issue of a thing that really got you hooked?

[02:25] Kyle: Man, that’s a tough one. Actually, have a heads up on that. I can remember, we always were getting comics, and I don't know why, because my parents never read a comic in their lives. My uncle's name is Tony Starks, as in Ironman, and he always ran the Silver and Gold Age side hustle, and they used to have a monthly article in one of the price guides, and I suspect, somehow, he's responsible for it. So, we were always getting them, and I can remember, comics, before, I'd have to look at the issue number, too. I hate that I don't know the issue number, because I remember getting Bear comics at gas stations, weird Christian Bear comics. You know what I mean? But the comic, the first time I remember getting, taking off the shelf, was an Avengers, and I want to say, it's 261. It's not that. They have a forcefield, and they're all beating on it, and it's a two-parter. I've still, to this day, never read the second part, or the first part. I don't know which part I didn't read, but that was the one. That was the moment I remember reading a comic book, and I'm not even sure if that was the first superhero comic, because I always remember having a pull list, but I think that was the one I remember taking off at the comic magazine section of a gas station. I can’t remember if that's the first one, but that's the one that I clearly remember.

I remember the first CD I bought. I don't remember the first CD I got, and that's how I feel about that comic, man. This is something I'm really interested in, and there's no money to do any research. What the research is, is what percentage of human beings, if you put a comic book in front of them, they just go “oh, this is what I like”? I think it's something genetic. You know what I mean? There's something inherent about you that you go, “I like this media.” I think that's the one where I was like, “this is what I want to do now. It's just what I like.”

[04:04] David: So, you never figured out what the issue was or anything? I did that, similar, I was reading the Hot Stuff and Archie and Casper, and all that stuff, but the comic where I was like, “Holy crap. This is my jam,” was Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew. Issue 4, specifically. His name is Mudd. I know everything about that book at this point, but that was the one where I was very invested in trying to figure out, what did the numbers mean in the top left corner? And who are the names on this? Why are their names on this thing? And what are they doing? And this is the guy that writes it, and this is guy that draws it. I learned everything about comics by trying to figure out how to get the next issue of Captain Carrot. At that point, I didn't know if it was monthly. I didn't know any of that stuff, but Captain Carrot taught me.

[05:00] Dave: Can I tell you a very quick aside about Captain Carrot, David? I'm sorry, Kyle. This story is really funny. Maybe 10 years ago, when I first moved to California, I didn't have any friends. So, what was I doing? I was going to weird estate sales doing back issue diving and finding weird ways to spend my time, and I went to an estate sale, and the guy had died really rapidly beforehand, and his ex-wife was selling his collection and was very upset. It seemed, not upset that he had died, but upset at something he had done, so she was just clearing out all his stuff, immediately. So, I'm going through the back issues, and there was a solid run of Captain Carrot stuff, and I literally exclaimed “Oh, Captain Carrot!” and I looked over, and this woman was just seething with anger, and like, “ just take the Captain Carrots.”

[05:57] Kyle: That dead husband was talking about Captain Carrot all the time. He definitely pulled something out and said “Ooh, Captain Carrot.” I hate it when you do this. Captain Carrot meets Alice in Wonderland is an under-appreciated GOAT, by the way.

[06:12] David: The Oz-Wonderland War? The three-issue miniseries. Love that. The art in that is underrated, too, but if you go back and look at the art, she was mixing a couple different styles in that three-issue series, and it's not quite a masterclass, but it's damn close.

[06:32] Kyle: Those Wizard of Oz sketches.

[06:36] David: It was pretty impressive, actually. I can talk about Captain Carrot literally anytime of the day, so before we completely, well, we're already off-course, I just found out, I think it was Derek Robertson posted a Tweet the other day that McFarlane Toys made a Captain Carrot figure, and look, man, I'm not happy about the jump on this timeline that's happened in the last six or seven years. Stuff’s gone a little sideways here and there, and I'm not super stoked. David Bowie should definitely not be dead, but everything is forgiven. I now do have a Captain Carrot action figure. Oh, my god, okay, greatest timeline ever. I'm happy. This version of reality is totally cool.

[07:22] Kyle: It's Avengers 233.

[07:29] David: Good job, Kyle.

[07:30] Kyle: I should have a Post-it note with it on my desk.

[07:33] David: So, 233 gave you the bug. That was your gateway drug. Where did you go, “This is what I'm going to do for a living”?

[07:44] Kyle: Today is my 47th birthday, and I've been professionally making comics for seven years, and I probably started making comics, I think, I made my first comic 13 years ago. So, I was 34 when I made my first comic, basically. When I was a kid, I loved comics. We had a pull list. I only had the worst most basic things in their worst time period. I had Spider Man, Hulk, Justice League, X Men. That was my pull list, but it was Spider Man when he wasn't doing anything. He's fighting Firelord on the streets. Weird. Hulk when he was trapped in the Crossroads Dimension. That was not for kids. That was not fun. It was an old comic. Justice League was Justice League Detroit, and the X Men, of course, were dope. It’s a weird period where, “why do you like these minor characters?” It's because I only read bad comics in my most formative years. So, I always had that pull list. It got better when I got older, probably. I started working at a comic shop when I was 14. It was a comic shop/video rental/used book and music/baseball cards/pornography store, and being able to take any book home, any movie home, reading every comic that came out on Tuesday, because that's what you did. As you were bagging them, you just read everything because you could then, and I was like, “I love comics. I'm going to go to school for art,” but I never finished anything, and I ended up going in the mid-90s, which were really bad.

Listen, I stand by it. Comics were no fun. They were not very good. There were some real gems, but it was dark and gritty, and everything was people growling all the time with a lot of shadows. It just wasn't fun. Outside of the few things, which I look back now are probably extremely formative, which is the Busiek stuff, JLA, […] Why am I blanking on this dude who I love so much? Because I'm not prepared. I went to comics to be a painter. I was working at art galleries at the time, and I moved past it, though, I spent literally 18 years of my life, not 18, 16, obsessed with superheroes at a time when no one wanted to talk superheroes with you. I went off to college and I quickly learned, I was never going to be a fine artist. That's not a job that I could do, and I ended up having normal jobs and doing normal things.

So, I didn't think about it. In fact, there's probably four years where I didn't pick up a pencil. I didn't draw anything or write anything. I was just drinking a lot and trying to get laid, but then I met my wife and we got pregnant, we had our kid, we had our second kid, she just turned 14 this year, and I go, “my time will be gone, and my time is no longer mine. I will have no free time,” and so I made a bucket list of things I wanted to do, before we had this second kid, and #1 was finish a comic. Literally finish, because I probably had 16 of a 24-pager when I was 16. You know what I mean? I’d never finished a comic, and so I did this comic, 180 pages, which is so dumb. Don't do it that way. That was The Legend of Ricky Thunder, which just got announced as optioned, and nickname was attached to Dolph Ziggler, which is very cool. Which is crazy, unpublished work optioned. Anyway, I did that book, and what I found was, I loved doing it. I loved the process of creating or writing, or drawing my own stuff, and so then I did SexCastle, then I did Kill Them All, I did Rick and Morty, but I made my first comic when I was probably 34, and I've been doing it for seven years. It's crazy. I never planned on it. I'd never geared my life towards it. I didn't think it was a thing that’d ever actually happen. None of the things that have happened since. I just thought I found a hobby that I liked, that was profitable, which is the best, because hobbies cost money. So, to have one that was profitable was so thrilling to me, and I just loved doing it and kept doing it, and obviously things worked out for me. That's my origin story, which is great.

So, here’s the origin of the origin story. Everyone's favorite part of my origin story is, I did this book called SexCastle, which is the book I did after The Legend of Ricky Thunder, which I did after Kickstarter. I go to HeroesCon every year. It’s my favorite convention. There’s SexCastle. We love it, and I wouldn't be at my table because I might miss a sale, and I just love the idea of handselling. I know, you got my book. I talked you into it. I just love that, and I still love it. The only reason why I make any of it is to be read and consumed and enjoyed. The sole purpose of everything I do is to entertain someone for however long the book is. So, the thing about HeroesCon is that they have a soul food place, called Mert’s, and I think Mert’s is dope, and I think soul food is dope, but you can't go there by yourself. You have to find a group. You know what I mean? I was looking for the people, and I saw this guy who used to work for Comics Alliance, who discovered me, and was like, “you guys going to Mert’s tonight?” And he's like, “Yeah, but,” I’m like “no buts. I have to get some of this chicken. You won't even know I'm there.”

Well, the, “yeah, but” was that at this dinner, they were going to be doing a podcast interview with Matt Fraction and Chip Zdarsky at the peak of Sex Criminals, and so I ended up going, he introduced me, he's like “this is Kyle Starks. He made the best book of the year, which is SexCastle,” and Matt was like, “Oh, I'll need to pick it up.” We went to this dinner. We did go to Mert’s. We went to a shitty pizza place, and I was going to mind my own business, but I was working at a newspaper at the time, and they were talking about newspaper stuff. So, I stuck my nose in. The next day, Sunday, Matt never came, and I know the thing about Matt Fraction is that he likes to walk around and buy things. He likes to support the industry, and I was like, “I should go give him this book,” and so I was like, “I'm going to leave my table.” So, I walked over there. This is peak Sex Criminals. The line is around the building, and Kelly Sue's in the middle of them. I mean, it's the longest line, and I'm like, “I can't wait in that line. I have to go back to my table.” So, I interrupted the table, I was like, “Hey, Matt. You said you want to get my book. Here it is,” and he goes, “How much is it?” And I'm like, “It’s nothing. Are you kidding me?” And Matt Fraction, which is one of the most famous quotes in my house, Matt Fraction points at me, and he says, “pros get paid.” He bought the book from me. His plane didn't take off in time, and he started Live Tweeting it, and so I think he sold 10 copies while he's Live Tweeting, and I was stoked, because that's 200 bucks. Thanks, Matt, and then he emailed me. He's like “do you want to talk to Image?” And from there, it is what it is.

It just a crazy series of, I wasn't trying to do anything. I'm just trying to make good books and have people read them, and I keep getting lucky. The job I had was, I worked at this place in town that’s 140 years old. It was the best place to work in town. I was set as a union job. I had union insurance. I have a second kid on the way. I'm set. They just closed. They just closed one Christmas, and there's no place I can do this job anymore in town. So, we'd have to move, which sucked, and my wife was like, “Do you think you could do this? Do you think you could do comics for a career?” And I’m like, “I think I could do four Kickstarter in a year if I had to. Four a year, which by the way, I think now I go “I don't have the energy for it.” I would have happily done it. So, I did Kill Them All. I did 90 pages in 30 days, and I did the Kickstarter, and that February, I think, I got offered Rick and Morty, and then obviously, SexCastle was nominated for an Eisner. It was optioned before it came out.

It was very good for me, and people being like, “we have buddy books. Do you want to do a buddy book?” But doing Rick and Morty, which sold so well for five years, was such a blessing to my career, and it just happened. You know what I mean? I was supposed to do five issues on that. Can I do the whole interview myself? I was supposed to do five issues, and then they were going to pick someone else, and they liked me enough, they were like “let him do five more,” and so I was, “Oh, I'd love to do five more,” and then I did five more. They said, “just let him do it until he doesn't want to do it anymore.” So, I did 48 issues, but I think that's a blessing because people are like, “this is the guy who can carry a book, who's building an audience, whose stuff is getting nominated.” It's just luck. I mean, the book has to be good, but what a crazy series of events. If I didn't get offered Rick and Morty, where would I be? I don't know. Probably Minnesota, working in a factory.

[14:46] David: Minnesota sounds really cold.

[14:47] Kyle: It's super cold, I’m told.

[14:48] David: It's not luck, though, Kyle. I mean, I hear you and that, but what it is, is you were open and available and ready for opportunity, and so when that opportunity came, the opportunity to presents itself to everybody, but you were ready for the opportunity, and so when it came, you were ready for it and you were able to grab hold of it and not let it go. So, don't downplay who you were and what you were capable of in that moment, because a lot of other people had those opportunity. I've given people those opportunities, and it just doesn't materialize because they didn't prep. They weren't in the right space, and you were.

[15:30] Kyle: I mean, for sure, being professional, those things are a factor, and whenever I talk to Matt, I'm always like, “I have a blood debt to you.” I have a blood that to Matt Fraction. He always says the same thing. He's like, “if it wasn't good, it wouldn't matter,” and that's true, and I'm not downplaying, because I think my stuff's fair, but the truth is, there's a million great things that no one ever sees, and I'll say this, Dave, I didn't realize I met you at Seattle seven years ago. What was the name in the book you were doing? It had a dirty word in it.

[15:59] Dave: Fuck Off Squad.

[16:00] Kyle: I don't know how far back, but that was great. I remember because I Googled you. That book was great. At Emerald City, everyone was like “this book is great.” How far did that go? Even if a project is good, you never know if it does enough, or if it's seen by enough, or if it pays off like it should, and I think there's a lot of comics are smaller, and the bar for good is lower. So, I think probably, most really great things get seen, and then, as you were saying, it's on the creator to whether or not they can really grab the moment or really do the follow-up as well. There's a bunch of variables, but there's a lot of great stuff that nobody ever sees. I think, in music, how many great bands are out there putting out great stuff that just no one's ever heard of? So, getting somewhat in that direction, at the time, I'd say it was one of the three biggest things in comics, at that time, and to have someone that go to bat for you, there's no way. It's such a flukey thing to happen, and one day, I too will pass along that kindness to a brilliant young creator in his late 30s, and making the book about 80s action movies or whatever, some dumb 80s action movie book.

[17:17] Dave: It's really hard because the bandwidth in some of these publishers for evaluating things that may or may not be a little left of center is always a little limited, and it's a weird chicken and the egg of, how do you prove yourself without you being given a shot, but nobody wants to give a shot to someone who's not proven? And you just have to be in the scene and prove you're not a crazy person for a decade, usually.

[17:40] Kyle: There's so many ways to get into comics that I stand by the best way to do it is just to make the thing that you wish existed and never shut up about it. I know you guys had plans. I don't want to detour away, but the number of young guys who have done a little bit, who want to break in, and “what do we do? We can't get anyone to publish us.” Why are you waiting for permission? Don't wait for permission. You don't need it. Make the thing. Make the thing you want to exist, and the worst thing is that you made something you love. Whoa, what a burden on you. So, I never understand waiting for permission, especially in 2024 when you absolutely don't even need a publisher to be successful. So, I never understand people who are like “why won’t Boom! talk to me?” Who gives a shit? It's funny, I say that from a place of privilege, and I love Boom! by the way. Pine and Merrimac sold out. No big deal. I'm coming from a place of privilege, but when I started, I would have been Kickstarters forever, and if I was younger, I would be doing Webtoons, which I still might be. All that stuff is so viable that when people are like, “man, how do I talk to Skybound?” I say, “You don't own the rights. Do you want to talk to them? What do you want to do? Do you want to be published or do you want to make a book?” It's always that line where you can see where that young creator is. They don't want to make a great thing. They want to be published.

[18:51] David: Sometimes, they're not serious. Sometimes, they don't actually want to do the work. There's a lot of that.

[18:56] Kyle: Speaking to what Dave was saying, with something which is off-center, like SexCastle or, I'm going to say the name wrong, Fuck Off Squad. I want to say Fuck It Squad, but that seems like a different book. You go, “this is good, but it's not the things that we published.” Well, can this person do the thing that we make? And you have to prove that. Rick and Morty sold 15,000 copies but no one read it. I promise you. No one read that book, but it sold 15,000 copies, but what I proved is that I could do a book for five years. I could do a book for two years, and there's value in that. There’s all these little things that matter. Right now, I'm in my big two phase, and the big two phase is crucial. If you want to have a long-term career, I have to do a good three, four years here in Marvel and DC, that benefits me financially, I don't think, that much, or creatively, maybe even, that much, but it validates me to the greater direct market readers. It's priceless. How do you get there? And then how do you get to the next thing? It's all a weird ladder that you're climbing, and the ladder is shaped differently for everybody, which is frustrating.

[20:01] Dave: And I think there's also something about, you're approaching career-building with a very analytical, 30,000-foot view. You're aware of the stage you're in.

[20:114] Kyle: You have to be.

[20:16] Dave: You say that, but I know a lot of my friends and our mutual friends don't always approach things with that mindset. “I have to pay rent immediately, and so I'm going to take this job.”

[20:29] Kyle: Again, there's quality and there's luck is that, one, if I want to make a book, I can draw it. I have the benefit of always being able to afford my artist. He's free. You know what I mean? That's a ridiculous benefit. I've also had the benefit of that I've always been smart over my money and successful enough it shows, that I've maybe only twice ever took a job I wouldn't have taken. One was during the pandemic, I take a job that was “I need the money, and I'm worried about the money.” That's a place of privilege, for sure, but I also had a full-time job early on. You know what I mean? I didn't come out of college and go, “guess what I am now. I'm a professional comic book creator.” It took a long time of me building a network. Is it making me look bad? Do I look like an asshole? You actually see it in my books. There's a theme, your job is not who you are, because what you do is who you are, and so, again, those jobs I had, I wasn't supposed to be, but I was working on comics all the time while I was working, because I wasn't working a cashier's desk. You know what I mean? I had benefits. I was in an office.

I've been very lucky, and I say it a lot, and sometimes, you have to just do things, for sure, and I'm also obsessed with legacy, Dave, in an unhealthy way. I don't think I have anything bad. I maybe have a couple of things that aren't great, and that's because I've been so lucky. That's such a place of privilege. Again, me saying, “you don’t need publishers.” That's easy for me to say now. The thing about comics, and I'd probably suspect any creative profession, is that each level, you go, “if only this,” and then once you get that, you go “if only I could find someone to publish this one book,” and then you get that publisher, and then you're “if only the next publisher sold books.” It's this thing where you keep solving one problem, but you replace it with a worse problem.

[22:19] David: It's the imposter syndrome that creeps up on people. I think. Chris Ryall, the former editor in chief and all kinds of titles over at IDW Publishing, he's a proselytizer of this, which I admire, is that if you're just in your room, drawing and writing comic books, and just printing them off of your printer, and folding and stapling yourself, you're in comics. You're making comics. You're a comic book creator, and that mentality of “I'm not good enough,” or “I’ve got to do this thing now. I've got to do this thing now,” in order to feel you're validated and that you are “in comics.” That's impostor syndrome, man. You’ve got to get that stuff out of your head, because that's not real. What's real is that if you're doing it, then you are.

[23:02] Kyle: That’s 100% true. If you want to be a comic book creator once, you make one, but there's no creative person on earth who doesn't have impostor syndrome, at some point, and it's usually about three quarters of the way through the project where you go, “I think those sucks.” I think a lot of that's why they are finishing so hard. My friend, Chris Schweitzer, taught at SCAD at one point, and I think is one of America's best, underrated, says the difference between an amateur and a pro is that a pro finishes, which is 100% true, but I think that point, when you're three quarters, 5/6ths of the way through a project, and you go, “I think that maybe sucks.” No. Trust your gut. Trust your earliest judgment. Believe in the earlier version of yourself’s idea, because they seemed pretty into it, and then you finish, and you go, “it's pretty good.” That's the difference, because maybe you’ve got that one where you go, “I don't know. I might not be any good at this.”

[23:48] David: I do want to add one caveat to that. I think all of that is absolutely true, Kyle. The caveat that I would add to it is that you have to have a way to self-reflect that is realistic. You have to have a realistic self-reflection. So, you have to be able to analyze and look at your work, and compare it to those of other professionals or semiprofessionals, or people that are amongst your peers in the moment, and be able to identify where you are in the process. I have seen people. They do finish stuff, but they never improve because they have no ability to self-evaluate, and that self-evaluation piece is what you're talking, taken too far, you kill yourself. You stop the project. You don't finish the thing, but it’s healthy to have some form of that. Just not so much that it's getting in the way.

[24:43] Kyle: That speaks to something else I usually tell you is, objective self-awareness, as a creator, is how you improve. If you wanted me to not objectively rank my books in order, I could do it. Don't make me do it. SexCastle, Rock Candy Mountain, Peacemaker, Old Head.

[24:58] David: I'm shocked. I Hate This Place? Oh, man.

[25:01] Kyle: I Hate This Place is right there. I put Mars Attacks over I Hate This Place. I think Mars Attacks is one of the best things I've ever done. No one read it, but I think SexCastle and Rocky Candy Mountain, I wouldn't change anything about them. There's nothing I would change. Peacemaker, that I don't think there's anything I would change about it, and that, for me, is the ranking, because it's, how can I improve this? I don't look at them like that. They are as they should be, and they're great, and I think they will stand. I think those three books, Mars Attacks is really good. I think those three books will stand the test of time. I say, humbly, I think those are my three best works, and they're the best introductions, to me, to enjoy my other work. I think, if you were in SexCastle before you read Assassin Nation, you'd like Assassin Nation a lot more than if you read them reversed. Where Monsters Lie, I think, it's a really good introduction to my work, too. It does all the things that I want a book to do. I think that's high up there, too. I think those four issues are really good. Really tight four issues that do everything I want them to do. First of all, self-awareness, asking that from anyone in 2024 is very hard, but being able to to objectively look at your book and go, “Okay, I'm not as thrilled with this as I am with that. Why not? How could this have been better? What did I do wrong? What can I do better?” In that way, it's constantly learning, and always the new skill, too. It's being an athlete, where you go, “Okay, I’ve got to learn the three-pointer. If I want to keep moving forward and increase my readership,” which is what the goal is, because again, nothing I do is for a vacuum. It's all meant to be read and enjoyed and consumed. What do I want? I want more people reading them. That's the point of it is, I need a three-point side, and if you have no awareness, you just go, “Gosh, it's just getting harder to score.” So, yeah, I think that was a really great point that leads into secrets or whatever to how to go someplace.

[26:34] Dave: I think the conversation you're having, too, of trying to have the self-awareness, I think there's two versions of that. There's a version where you are self-aware as a creator, and you're charting a course, and you know where your weaknesses are, and you know the flaws in the marketplace that you need to work around, and then there's a time also, and a place where you go, “I know that there's no audience for this. I know that this is a risky project. I'm just going to do X or Y or Z because it's what my creative instincts are telling me I should do.”

[27:01] Kyle: I'll say this. They’re the same, though. You may think, “I make a niche book. This is what I like to make,” all because you’ve made it, maybe there's a ceiling. Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't. You know what I mean? That's not how you create things. You go, “I want to make stories. I just want to comics about wrestling. That's all I want to make. I know it’s a niche.” Then be like, “Well, how do I make it? How do I net?” Well, you don't have to, but the thing is, it's not knowing the industry. I don't think even now I know the industry, because it doesn't make any sense. It's a crazy industry. Basically, you go, “I want to make this thing. What do I want?” And you go, “I want more readers.” Well, here's the thing, I believe, firmly, if you make a thing that you think is great, other people, who knows how many? 75? If you make a thing that's so niche that you think no one else will like it, but you're going to love it, and 75 other people like it, to me, that's a huge success. That's an enormous success. If you put it on Kickstarter, and you sell 500 copies, that's a huge success, but also, to me, if you can sell 500 copies, I go, “I bet you could sell 700 copies on the next one, if you think about how to do it better, how to do a better version of it.”

I'm in a place now where it's a lot of me looking back, too. It's not when I was making SexCastle, I was like “how will I someday be the guy who does Wild Dog again?” Which is, frankly, insane. How am I the guy who put the dog named Bruce Wayne into DC Universe? That was never the plan. I never thought any of that would happen, but my thing has always been, how can I get more readers? Again, not for fiscal purposes. Though, thank goodness for the fiscal rewards. I just want readers, man. So, I go from 500 copies of SexCastle on Kickstarter, but I sold 13,000 copies of Rock Candy Mountain #1. So, that's the thing. It's worth it for me to get to Image somehow. It’s worth it for me now to find a publisher, and also because I'm so legacy obsessed, which is literally a shortcoming of mine. It's a flaw of my character. I want to get a publisher because it'll be in the catalog. When I'm dead, you can still get SexCastle, but you can't get Legend of Ricky Thunder, because no one ever bought it, which bothered me. So, self-awareness is not, how do I become a huge success? Because in comics, what is the huge success anyway? You don't I mean? One of my very good friends, who I'm not going to name, has a Tesla. Great, but he didn't get that money from comics, either. He got that money from opportunities from comics, which is another thing, but it's my whole thing, and I think #1 impetus. I want to make the thing that I want to exist in the world that people will enjoy.

That's all I want, and then sometimes the thing, like Old Head. I don't know if you have read Old Head. It's weird. I think it's one of my best books. I could never sell someone on it, which is why I waited so long to do it, because I could never go, “let me hype you on the book. It's about a deaf NBA player, and Dracula's head, and there are dick monsters.” What's happening here? It's a weird pitch. I made that because that's the book I wanted to exist, and it's good. It just, people won’t read it, and I know why people don't read it, but the thing is, my hope is, I come on shows like this, I go to conventions, I talk to people, and they go, “I like him. Let's see what he has,” and they go “what Image books does he have?” And that's the one they get. SexCastle, Rock Candy Mountain, Old Head. Let's go. You know what I mean? That's a great three books. I would warn them, my other books, that I didn't draw, are much better drawn, and there's something to that.

[30:07] David: Steve Pugh. That doesn't suck, man. That is an incredibly well-drawn book. Bruce Wayne, with Amanda Waller talking to Peacemaker, and she’s upset because she thinks he's talking about Bruce Wayne, Batman. He's just talking about his dog. That was some nice back and forth, man. I loved that.

[30:26] Kyle: This is in many ways the case in point of what Dave and I was just talking about. I wrote that, and I was like “No one's going to get this,” because it's such a dialogue joke, and it's not a show joke. This is for me. This bit I'm putting in just because I think it's hilarious, and that's one of the bits that people say the most to me. You just never know, but it's tough to do a who's-on-first bit in comics. Shout out to Steve Pugh because that's a lot of that. I'm like, “no one will love this. I think it's funny. No one will like it.” Number one or two thing that people talk about. You make the thing you want, man. Build it they will come. I really believe that. Now, if you're into something messed up, illegal, that's not applicable. If you have a weird fetish comic, though, I bet you, they will come. You're choosing your audience. You know what I mean?

[31:21] Dave: I get asked that so often. In LA, there's a lot of art schools and stuff, and I do talks or whatever about “this is how I made it in the arts” or whatever. Inevitably, at the end of every one of those, some person walks up and goes, “I know you said be vocal about supporting your work and talking about it online, but what if it's different?” And it's always the same thing, whether it's hentai, it's furry porn.

[31:55] Kyle: Put it on Tumblr and put a Patreon and you're about to make a ton of money. More money than me.

[32:05] Dave: Yeah, put it on Tumblr and put a Patreon link on every post. You're about to get rich.

[32:11] David: I've been asked to draw some weird stuff, especially when I was drawing Gargoyles back in the day. Holy moly.

[32:15] Kyle: I've been asked to do some curious Rick and Morty stuff, and I always said I'm not going to do that.

[32:21] David: I always said no as well. It's not my jam.

[32:24] Kyle: There’s someone on the internet who's doing this already and they'd be glad to take your money for this.

[32:29] David: The other thing I loved about Peacemakers, I just want to talk about that for another second, is the choice of sound effects. How you chose to handle sound effects. Everything is, he's punching somebody into the ceiling, and the sound effect is “ceiling fucked,” or he punches the guy in the face and smash him through a wall, and “flawless victory.” That's peppered throughout the book, and I love that choice. I thought it really just makes Peacemaker. Yeah, it's that little bit extra, and somehow, it conveys personality on Peacemaker himself, in a way. It's this added bit of spice to the mix, which I really loved. It's a great book.

[33:15] Kyle: Thank you. The SFX are in his voice. I've done silly sound effects my whole career. In SexCastle and in Rock Candy Mountain, I do it, and I think one of the editors was like, “We love your sound effects,” and I think I do it a little bit in almost all my books at some point because of the sound effects. What is it? I don't know how to be so weird. What does it sound like when a machine gun shoots in the mud? I don't know. It's always worrisome. I don't know if that's the right word. So, doing things like that. I think one of the editors was like, “we liked your sound effect in something else,” was like, “I'll do it again. Whatever you want, I'll do it again.”

[33:51] David: So, what is your approach, in terms of how you write with something like Rick and Morty, as opposed to something where it's more personal, something like I Hate This Place?

[34:03] Kyle: It's still the same. When they asked me to do Pet Avengers, Marvel, my thing was “one weird ask. I do character-driven adult action comedy. These are no-personality animals.” My thing was, what is the story that I want to see with these characters that I would like, but it also that the fans of these characters would like? Because they're not my characters. I'm allowed to drive these characters, and I take that very seriously. So, when I was asked to do Rick and Morty, I'll get to Peacemaker, when I was asked Rick and Morty. First of all, there weren't any because it was so slow. I don't know if you can remember. There are the two years in between seasons. I was like, “I want more episodes.” So, I wasn't doing Kyle Starks’s Rick and Morty. I wanted to do Rick and Morty. When they asked me to do Thanos, I did Thanos, a one-shot at 10-pager that Ron Lim drew. Crazy. Mark that one off. My thing was like, what's the Thanos story that Thanos fans would like? That was my thing for Peacemaker. They were literally like, “what should we do?” And I'm like, “the thing like the show. The thing that people like. Why would we even consider anything else, honestly?” So, it's always trying to find that balance. I’ve just got to ask the pitch on a couple of things.

It's the same thing as, how do I do the version of this character that the fans of that character will love that I also will enjoy, and it's the best version of that. So, it's finding that balance. I'm not one of those people who will come in and want to strong arm myself into these characters. They’re not mine. I just don't care enough. You know what I mean? 18-year-old me would be losing their mind. 47-year-old me is like, “it’s a job I want to do a very good job at,” and I love those worlds. I adore them, but I'd rather be doing I Hate This Place. I'd rather be the place where I have total control, and no one ever tells me “Alfred can't do that. Alfred Pennyworth can't do that.” Who gives a shit? I would hate for me to do, name a character, Colossus. I'm not doing Colossus. I probably never will. For me to do Colossus, it’d be like, “this is a good one,” and people go, “that's not good. We hate that.” You know what I mean? I don't want to ever be that creator in the Big 2 market. I want people to be, they have added to the tapestry of this character and not in some way tried to uproot it. I don't have that interest. That just doesn't sound like fun to me. I don't need to do Kyle Stark’s version of it. I mean, it always is. It's always going to be chatty. It's always going to be funnier than it should be, because I can't help myself, and there'll be character stuff over spectacle, always, but it's still going to be like, “That's a dope Colossus story. That was a good one. I liked that one a lot.” I think that's what you aspire for, but the follow-up to that is people go, “what's the difference between me drawing something and someone else drawing something?” and the short version of that is, I will never make an artist draw as much as I will, and I think that their day job, I'm not going to make them do 12-panel pages. I will draw 12-panel pages all day, like a crazy person.

[36:47] Dave: I always have to be like, “alright, don't put as many crowd scenes when other people are drawing.” No more giant tableaus of 400 characters.

[36:56] David: Dave hates himself. The writer, Dave, hates artist Dave. Writer Dave just beats the hell out of artist Dave.

[37:02] Dave: That's a false premise. I like drawing those things. I like that.

[37:06] Kyle: The thing is, I like drawing a lot of panels because I'm very beat-oriented, and so, the number of panels on a page sets up a beat and for comedy and action, I feel like it's very important, but as I've been forced to move out of cartoonist Kyle into writer Kyle, man, I would never. I'd have to be like, “Listen, I have this idea.” I'd have to pass it in advance. I had an artist on one book, who will not be named, who complained about the number of six-panel pages I had written. Listen, pick up a Kirby book. That's the average, guy. Six is average. So, I started doing five-panel pages. It changes everything about how you tell the story, but because of that, I'm very gun shy to give anyone more than six panels, and I just don't. If you look at Peacemaker, if you look at any of those, if there's seven, they probably added that panel, or you can see it clearly had to happen, for one reason or another. That’s the follow-up to that, is that I'm very respectful of that professional artist’s time and energy. Kyle Starks, he'll draw from six to 10 on one page. It doesn't matter. If it takes 18, I think, in issue one of Rock Candy Mountain, there's an 18-panel page, because I had a fight I wanted to put in there and I didn't have space. Well, listen, that's the only way you can do it. Whereas, now, it's just like, “well, I guess the fight’s one panel. I hope they draw it good.”

[38:24] John: Hey, guys, you're not going to believe this, but we went long again. So, come back in, I think we're going to do the same thing we did last week. Come back again in a couple days for part two of our talk with Kyle Starks, or Kyle Starks talk at us anyway. No, I'm just kidding. It's been a great interview. It gets even better. So, come back in two days. See you soon.

Thanks for joining us, and please subscribe, tell your friends about us, leave a review and comments. Check out www.cornerbox.club for updates, and come back and join us next week for another episode of The Corner Box with John and David.