[00:00] Intro: Welcome to The Corner Box, where we talk about comics as an industry and an art form. You never know where the discussion will go or who will show up to join host David Hedgecock and John Barber. Between them, they've spent decades writing, drawing, lettering, coloring, editing, editor-in-chiefing, and publishing comics. If you want to know the behind-the-scenes secrets, the highs and lows, the ins and outs of the best artistic medium in the world, then listen in and join us on The Corner Box.

[00:31] John Barber: Hey, welcome back, everybody. I'm John barber. With me, as always-

[00:35] David Hedgecock: David Hedgecock.

[00:36] John: Good to see you, David.

[00:37] David: Good to see you, John.

[00:39] John: Or hear you if you're not us. We've actually got, for the first time ever, a special guest. Megan's a regular guest. I guess, we have a special one this time. I think, one of both of our favorite artists, and I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but my favorite people to work with.

[00:56] David: Absolutely.

[00:57] John: Paul Pelletier is here with us. Hi, Paul.

[01:00] Paul Pelletier: Hey, how's it going?

[01:02] John: I probably should have done some research and actually known what credits to throw out instead of just the stuff that I liked.

[01:07] David: I've got a whole laundry list, if you want me to start with the highlights. Well, this is just the highlights. Paul, you're more than 20 years in. You might be 30.

[01:16] Paul: 30/31.

[01:18] David: In no particular order, but some of the stuff that spoke to me was Ex-Mutants.

[01:25] Paul: That was early on. That was actually the first job. I was able to quit my day job and start working comics full-time.

[01:33] David: Yeah, and then a really long run on Negation, went over to Marvel, did War of Kings, eXiles, Fantastic Four, Incredible Hulk(s). Did the Fall of the Hulks, Wolverine, Great Lakes Avengers, a personal favorite. Over at DC, did some Outsiders, Green Lantern, and the Titans, Aquaman, Batgirl, and, of course, the Aquaman Jabberjaw Special.\

[01:59] Paul: Don't forget about Superboy and the Ravers. Come on.

[02:02] David: 9 issues of Superboy and the Ravers, as well. That's right. So, yeah, that's, like I said, those are the longer runs that I thought might have a little more impact, but yeah, that's just the start. John?

[02:17] John: All three of us worked on a comic called The Others. That's not out yet, but will be soon. Our parts are all done. It's just getting color.

[02:26] David: Yeah, the publisher is CMON Games, and we did an original graphic novel that we worked on, mostly last year. It's in there, so they're just figuring out when the release is for that. They have a very different publishing schedule than any traditional comic book publisher. Yeah, I think we all agreed that was probably one of our favorite things to work on, at least for the last couple of years. I've certainly enjoyed it.

[02:48] Paul: 120 glorious pages is quite the project.

[02:52] David: Yeah, John was the writer on that one. I just sat back and watched everybody, which is what I call editing. Paul did pencils, Drew Hennessy on inks, and Laura Martin is in four colors.

[03:04] John: You joke about how you edit, but quite honestly, I think that's how a good editor should be. He or she brings in the people that they think are going to do the job really well and just let them go. If you've done your job picking the right people, then an editor’s job ideally shouldn't be that difficult.

[03:25] David: It's largely staying out of the way. I've never been formally trained to be an editor. I don't know, is there an editor school, John?

[03:32] Paul: It's called being a copy boy at DC, or something. Right?

[03:37] David: Yeah, I guess that's the formal training. Yeah, so I never even had the Marvel or DC route. I went fully independent all the way up. But yeah, I so enjoyed that project. The two of you definitely being the heavy lifters made it that way, for me. I appreciate you both.

[03:54] John: You had some good notes. I mean, don't count yourself out on that. There's some good bits. There's some really good things you threw in there, at least on my part, just made the story work. But yeah, I mean, that was funny because Laura interviewed me for a job back at Wildstorm a million years ago. I've known Drew's since right at the end of CrossGen. We've worked on in the first post-CrossGen/Marvel thing he did. So, I used to call that studio all the time, and those guys were in a studio together. I don't think I've ever worked with Paul. I know, I'd never worked with Paul in any context at all, but obviously I knew his work, but man, that was a great experience. Really awesome. Can really talk this thing up, but the artist is fantastic.

[04:43] Paul: Yeah, it's always dangerous when you get when you get a whole bunch of CrossGen people together though. The quality will always be good, but getting there could be a little difficult sometimes, but quality, always good.

[05:00] John: Find out more about that, I guess, as we go on.

[05:03] David: Maybe I don't know.

[05:04] Paul: Dave, you've mentioned you always enjoy hearing the CrossGen stories.

[05:09] David: Ah, I do love a good story. I think, that's one of the reasons why I like talking to John so much, because you hear all these really cool, like I said, inside stories about what's been going on in comics the last 15 years or so, and I love getting that little inside scoop. It's one of the things that I want to try to bring to the podcast. Obviously, some stuff we can't talk about, for the obvious reasons, but the stuff we can talk about, I think it's fun and interesting to me, and I think it would be to a lot of people.

[05:41] John: I share that fascination with CrossGen. I’m just wondering how that works, and hearing all the different pieces, and from where I sit, it's like the blind people touching the elephant and trying to figure out what it was shaped like. You hear all these different versions of things.

[05:53] Paul: Yeah, well, I guess I've always heard from some people, when they meet people who worked at CrossGen, they make a joking comment about how we get that 1000-Yard Stare when we start going into our story.

[06:06] David: Let's start there, because John and I have had conversations about this in the past, where we thought one of the best things that ever happened to comic books, at least in the late 90s, early 2000s, was CrossGen comics, and not for maybe the reasons that other people think. I thought the stories that came out of CrossGen were pretty fun. Negation, this is not to blow smoke, was in fact one of my favorite titles that came out of that, but more importantly, Alessi put together a studio, and you guys were all working out of the same place, and the amount of talent that went into that company at that working level, but not A-tier, A-plus tier level yet, but so many of you guys leveled up, seemingly, at CrossGen. What was that like?

[06:54] Paul: I think, what happened was, I don't even know if it's necessarily due to Mark Alessi, but I think, it's more due to the gut people, like Barbara Kesel, and Ron Marz, and Mark Waid. They knew all these artists from Marvel and DC that were solid, good artists, but were overlooked by the Marvels and DCs, and I think those were the people that knew they could get the job done, or decent artists, but they were overlooked by the companies, and I think, because of that, Marvel and DC started offering exclusive contracts, when CrossGen was up and running, because they were afraid some of their talent was going to get poached by CrossGen. So, that was definitely, I think, a big plus that CrossGen brought to the industry, is that Marvel and DC started having to think, “wow, if we don't take care of our talent, if we don't secure them, they might end up going to another company.” So, I think that was definitely a big plus that CrossGen brought to the industry.

[08:00] John: Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah, that seems like a lesson they should have learned about 10 years before CrossGen, around image time. I guess, is when you have to learn a couple of that. Well, also don't know if anybody was even left at that point, but yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I was on the Marvel side post-CrossGen, and just the influx of talent coming out of there, it was pretty common to just say that the best thing that ever happened to Marvel was CrossGen going out of business.

[08:24] Paul: Well, I mean, it was a stressful time for everyone at the studio when CrossGen was imploding, and I remember for a while there, Mark Alessi was picking a lot of fights with the Marvel people, like Joe Casada and Bill Jemas, and there are a couple others, and one of the coolest things that happened was when CrossGen looked like it was really going to go under. I remember, I think it was Joe Casada and Mike Martz coming down to Florida and talking with a bunch of us saying, “Hey, we don't hold any of the petty political fights that Mark Alessi was having with Marvel,” they weren't holding that against the art teams, the artists, and they said, “hey, if we can find you work, get you back on your feet after CrossGen, we're going to try and do it so.”

[09:11] David: Interesting. So, this was when everybody knew that CrossGen was basically shuttering?

[09:16] Paul: Yeah, I think that was especially when half the staff was let go, and so we were bare bones, but it was right around that time. Yeah, because printers weren't being paid, and a lot of freelancers out of house weren't being paid. We were getting partial checks. It was a rough time.

[09:38] David: Yeah. Can we go back just a little bit? At what point did you get to CrossGen and what was that studio life like for you guys? Because, like John said, I'm just making up stories in my own head, but I see all you guys, specifically the pencil and ink talent at CrossGen leveling up. Was Bart Sears over everybody’s shoulder going “let's do it. Do this. Make this change.” Were you guys looking at each other? Or was it just the intense level of practice that you guys were getting? What was that all like for you, starting with when you walked in?

[10:21] Paul: Well, when I was first invited, I was scared to death because I’d never worked in a studio situation. So, I always thought it would be weird having people watching what I was doing, and at CrossGen, they actually had tours through the studio, like they did at the Disney Studios with the animation studios. They bring people around, showing people what we did, and whatnot. So, that was a big change for me. But, I just look at the talent that was in that studio. You couldn't help but get better out of a healthy sense of competition. You're seeing what everybody is producing day in and day out, and you think “wow, I’ve got keep up with Scott Eaton and Bart Sears, and Brandon Peterson, and Jim Cheung, so you couldn't help but get better, and I look at the stuff I did in the 90s for DC and Marvel, and whoever else I was working for in the 90s, and I look at the stuff I did after CrossGen, and for me, that is a huge leap, and I think, I really grew a lot as an artist just being in that studio situation. Like i said, it wasn't that they were putting any dictates on us. I think we were just looking at what everybody else was producing at that time and thinking, “we’ve got to keep up. We got to put our best foot forward.”

[11:43] David: Jim Cheung’s right next to you, or right in the same room, you're walking over when you take a break and you're watching whatever he's drawing?

[11:53] Paul: For I while, when I first showed up, I think I was sharing a cubicle with Steve Epting. Actually, Laura Martin was in that cubicle, and then I changed over, and then Steve McNiven. I shared a cubicle space with him. So, each one would basically have the whole team. David Meikis was in the same cubicle, and James Rochelle was coloring the book at the time. I think, Tom Simmons, Maury Hollowell, and Tom Ryder. The anchor for a while. So, yeah, everybody. It was one big room just separated by cubicle walls. We're all in there. Sometimes, it got a little rowdy and a little crazy.

[12:33] David: You named so many people, including yourself, that got so much work and got so big after CrossGen? I'm thinking about Steve McNiven, who in my mind, I mean, did Steve McNiven even have any regular work before CrossGen?

[12:52] Paul: He was essentially brought in, him and Andrea DeVito were brought in like interns to learn what they were going to be doing. So, yeah, they were both pretty much unpublished. They were brand new talent that were brought in, and Andrea is still penciling for Marvel.

[13:15] David: And Maury Hollowell, who, I mean, just, man, some murderer's row of talent, in some of that stuff you're describing there, they're all just sitting right next to you.

[13:26] John: To be clear, the people were saying at Marvel, that was the best thing that happened, that wasn't going out of business that was good. It was the influx of talent that came into Marvel and the people that were just so much better. To be clear to anybody out there that nobody was saying the opposite of that, but the coloring was really a big place where I thought, industry-wide, things leveled up after CrossGen. The baseline level of comic book coloring was so much higher after 2003/2004.

[13:53] Paul: Honestly, I mean, I always said CrossGen had really good pencilers, fantastic inkers, and the best colorist, and on the whole, I think CrossGen really showed the industry what color in comics could be, whether it's good or bad. I mean, personally, I think a lot of it was fantastic, but I think, some colorists took that “now we have to over render everything. Make it look painterly.” Well, the people who can do it, sure, more power to them, but not everybody can. I honestly think CrossGen really did show where color could go in comics.

[14:32] David: It's interesting that you bring that up, John, because going back to Steve McNiven, just briefly, that's the thing that I felt like made Steve McNiven, is that he's the first artist that I saw who really took advantage of the colorist. When you look at a Stephen McNiven original page, he didn't spot a single blank. It's all just line art. Just super clean line art. He lets the colorist do all the figure work, all the rounding, and modeling, and shaping, and lighting. It seems like, at least his early work, I haven't seen what he's doing in the last couple of years, but it seemed like he really understood and took advantage of his partnership with the colorist in ways that I didn't see other artists doing until him.

[15:19] Paul: The dangerous thing about that, is you’ve got choose the right person to work with, too, because if you don't, having that much open line work could be a disaster, depending.

[15:33] David: What was the comic that made you a fanatic? John and I have talked about the comic book that influenced us more than anything, or the series that influenced us, that really got us into comics, that made us fanatics. What was that for you?

[15:47] Paul: I think, it was fourth or fifth grade, my best friend at the time was a big comics fan, and he introduced me to the Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-Men Run, and I mean, I was a huge fan of the X-Men at that time, but even more so, I was a John Byrne fanatic. So, I was buying anything that had his name on it. I worked backwards and picked up all the old Iron Fist books he did, and even his Charlton Comics stuff. I was picking up anything that had John Byrne’s name on it. So, I would say, yeah, that run of X-Men that Clermont/Byrne/Austin did was pretty much what sold me.

[16:30] David: Do you remember which issue you got rolling on?

[16:33] Paul: I remember, the first one I bought for myself at a garage sale for 50 cents or whatever, I believe, it was 136, Uncanny X-Men, where Cyclops is on the cover holding Jean Phoenix, it was part of the whole Dark Phoenix Saga, so that was the first one I distinctly remember buying myself, not borrowing from a friend or anything. So, I would have to say that issue. It’s a good one.

[17:04] John: It’s a good one. It’s notable.

[17:09] David: Yeah, that's a decent way to start comic books, I think. Yeah, it's got a bit of a pedigree.

[17:16] Paul: Back then, like I said, I became a John Byrne fanatic. So, I really tended to follow artists more than I did books. The only book I didn't care who was drawing it, was Power Man and Iron Fist. I bought that no matter what. I didn't care who was drawing it, but even to this day, when I want to watch movies, a lot of times, I'll follow a director or directors. So, I don't care who's in the movie, what the movie is about. If it's a director I like, I'll check it out.

[17:51] John: That was always the way I was, too. Really early on, I was reading GI Joe or whatever. I didn't know who anybody was. Once I started figuring out there are people making this stuff, and especially once I figured out that that's what I wanted to do, that was really the way I went. It was surprised, starting to work professionally in comics, realizing that that isn't the way, probably, most people approach comics. I had friends in high school. I had friends, guys, seriously, stop accusing. I was the guy that read comics. I didn't have a bunch of comic book friends, Even in the height of it. I mean, I had some friends, when comics really blew up in the 90s. I knew people were reading comics, but that was really the first time, aside from Pat Panfrisco, probably listening to this, he was my one comics friend. So, it's very insulated, in terms of, it was all in my own head, how people reacted to comics or whatever, and learning that, now, for a lot of people, it's like a sports team or something. They'll read Avengers, and even if they hate it, they'll keep reading it because they want to complain about it, and they get joy out of that. It was an interesting twist but I'm definitely with you on that one.

[19:05] David: Did you ever meet John Byrne, Paul?

[19:07] Paul: Not meet him. I mean, I had a book signed by him years ago. I knew he was going to be at a convention and I brought my copy of the oversized Black and White Star Lord, which was actually the first white Claremont/Byrne/Austin collaboration, I believe, and I think he was promoting his second book at the Con, Whipping Boy, I think, and he was there promoting that, so when I brought up the Star Lord, he goes, “I shouldn't be signing this,” and he signed it anyway, so that was cool. Now, it's not like I had a chance to meet him and talk with him. Someday, maybe. Hopefully, so that way you can say yeah, you stink.

Well, that's always my greatest fear. When I meet someone who was a big influence on me, it’s like, “ah, what if they know my stuff and they don't like it? That's always my biggest fear.

[20:04] David: My biggest fear is always that they're just going to be assholes, and then it's like, “ah, damn.” But it hasn't happened to me yet. So thankfully, knock on wood, all my heroes have been really, really cool.

[20:18] Paul: Yeah. Well, I told you, Dave, about the art panel I was on at HeroesCon this year. A quickdraw panel with Jose Luis Garcia Lopez and Alan Davis. So, it was intimidating. Both of them are so cool, and so accommodating that it was a joy. It was a lot of fun.

[20:45] David: Were they aware of your stuff at all?

[20:47] Paul: I mean, Jose, I've grown to know him over the last few years. He's familiar with my stuff, and he always says, “You put too much on the page. Too much.” It's like, I can learn to back off a little bit, but I honestly, don't know if Alan was familiar with my work or not.

[21:08] David: Of Alan and/or John Byrne, which for me, are two of your obvious influences. I see them in your work. What is the thing that you think you've taken away from either one of them, in terms of your particular style? What was the thing that you saw in their stuff that you copied or that just clicked in your brain, like, “Oh, that makes sense”? Anything, it doesn't have to be a big thing, it could be a little thing, too.

[21:33] Paul: I look at what I do now, and I can still see storytelling elements that I can see that I remember from looking at Byrne comics over the years. It's not even something I was doing consciously, but I think I've picked up some storytelling elements that he would use.

[21:51] David: Can you be more specific than that? Can you think of anything more specific than that? Something that you were like, “I just love the way he does that. I'm going to do that too.”

[21:58] Paul: No, no. I mean, I like I said, I think it's a subconscious thing where I'd seen so much of his work that I think, sometimes, if I'm laying out a page or whatnot, I think in the back of my head, I'll remember stuff that John Byrne used to do and incorporate it into what I do. So, I would say, I mean, I always liked the way he drew his characters. He's kind of like a good-looking Jack Kirby. Basically, his characters, Jack had all the energy, but let's face it, some of his characters weren't exactly pleasant to look at. Whereas, John Byrne always had really good-looking characters. So, I would say storytelling, John Allen, for me, he's a Neal Adams. Allen's work is just, he draws fantastic looking characters. Their body language is amazing. He can do really powerful looking characters, but he can also do the really subtle things with characterization. So, I’d like to think I've absorbed a little bit of that, but it's still a work in progress. I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing. I'm self-taught. 

[23:24] David: That was going to be my next question. Did you have any formal training? So, you're fully self-taught?

[23:28] Paul: Yeah. Well, unless you count a couple years of art in high school, but no, for comic book stuff, no, it's all trial and error. Basically, I've been lucky enough to be paid to practice the last 30 years, so but that's always a good thing.

[23:46] David: That makes me think, when did you feel like you made it in comic books? Do you feel like you've made it?

[23:57] Paul: Made it? I would say, I don't know, that's a good question. I've never really thought of that, because I'm still trying to prove myself in a way, even though, it sounds ridiculous, because staying busy for the last 30 years. I must be doing something right. But I always look at other artists and the amount of talent that's in the industry. It's mind-blowing how many talented people work in this industry. So, I always feel, when I was at the CrossGen studios, I was looking around like, “yeah, I'm happy with what I'm doing. But man, look at what those guys are doing.” So, I'm always trying to keep up with what everybody else is producing, because I mean, I'll look at a Shaun Murphy comic and think, “what the heck?” I mean, how am I supposed to compete with that? I Can’t. As far as making it though, I guess, probably, when I was invited to CrossGen. I mean, just the level of people that were there, and I was being invited to join them. I think that was a pretty good signifier to me that well, maybe I do belong with these guys. So, it was pretty cool.

[25:18] David: I have impostor syndrome to this day. I feel like, somebody's going to figure out that it's me, and they're not going to let me do this anymore. It hasn't happened yet but I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[25:30] Paul: I always have a tendency to try and compare myself to like the best of the industry, and I guess it gives me goals to what I want to achieve. So, instead of saying, “well, I’m better that that guy, but I'm not nearly as good as this other guy.” So, that's how I look at it. 

[25:51] John: Definitely feel that way.

[25:53] Paul: And it's all subjective, too. It’s art. People have preferences, one way or the other. So, no matter how good or bad you are, you're always going to find people who are going to like what you do or not like it, regardless of how good it is. So, you just have to roll with the punches with that.

[26:12] John: How did you get started? I didn't realize you worked on Ex-Mutants. Weird things, but I know Ron Lim came from from that as well, didn't he?

[26:21] Paul: Yeah, he was he was in the original. The black and white stuff. Yeah. I came later when when Malibu started producing their full color comics.

[26:33] Paul: It was right around ‘92 when image was was exploding. I was invited out to San Diego Comic Con when they were launching Ex-Mutants, and Evil Ernie was just starting up pretty much around that time. Yeah, I think Dale Keown was just promoting Pitt with image right around that time, and the ironic thing, we were talking about color with CrossGen, isn't that why Marvel bought Malibu, initially, for their color house? If I remember correctly?

[27:04] David: No, at least that was the stated reason.

[27:08] John: Yeah, I just read something, somewhere, with somebody refuting that, but I don't remember what the refutation was, or what the deal was. Maybe it's about breaking up or something.

[27:18] Paul: Right around that time, Malibu, that was their big thing, they were using more computer color, and then you look back at those books, and yeah, you can tell. Some of the color work was a little shaky, but that was the first job, Ss that was right around 91/92.

[27:40] David: How old are you at that point? If you don't mind saying?

[27:44] Paul: 21/22 years old.

[27:45] David: So, you've been working in in the comic world for a long time. What were you doing before that? What were you doing in the real world?

[27:54] Paul: Well, right after high school, I just worked any jobs I could. I was cutting shoe leather in a shoe factory. I was working in a rug factory for a while, transferring designs from small designs and blowing them up so that they can transfer them to rug material. I washed dishes. I was basically doing anything I could so I could get by paying the bills and whatnot, and do comic books on the side.

[28:23] David: Were you drawing nonstop when you weren't at work?

[28:25] Paul: Pretty much. I mean, I think my first published material was with comic called Zen: The Intergalactic Ninja. I grew up in Maine, and they were operating out of the town next to where I lived. So, I did some breakdown work on on issue five, I think, of Zen, and then I just happened to find other small black and white publishers here in Maine, that I basically spent four years drawing comic books, essentially for free, learning what I'm doing and trying to get better, because I originally did apply at the Kubert school, and I went down and interviewed with with Joe himself and got my hand crushed when he shook my hand. If you ever heard stories about Joe Kubert, anyone who met him and shook his hand will tell you, he had the strongest grip. He's going to grind your bones into dust. I was accepted, but unfortunately, I couldn't afford to go. So, I did it the hard way, took about four years working regular day jobs and doing comics on the side, and I think with one of the companies I worked with, I ended up being the art director, even though I didn't know what I was doing, Alpha productions, and we did a show, and we drove down from Maine down to Biloxi, Mississippi, and got a chance to meet the guys who were doing Silver Lining comics, Roland Mann, Mitch Byrd, Steve Butler. Really good guys, and Roland liked what I was doing and he wanted me to draw an offshoot of his Cat and Mouse book with his demon character, his Demon’s Tales. That was for Adventure Comics, which was an offshoot of Malibu, and that's pretty much how I got my foot in the door with Malibu.

I did an issue of exiles first, which was all Marat Mychaels’ character designs. I think, it was supposed to be connected to the Image Universe a little bit, and then they offered me Ex-Mutants, and it took off from there.

[30:43] David: And from then, you’ve always stayed busy. Once you hit the Ex-Mutants, you're busy from then on.

[30:50] Paul: Yeah, it was funny, because most of my career, I was never a huge DC fan. I was always a Marvel guy. So, when I was working on Ex-Mutants, the inker I was working with, Ken branch, had sent his samples over my pencils to DC, and he got a bunch of work from DC, but at the same time, the editor he was working on say, “Hey, who's that penciller you're working with?” I never sent samples to DC, and the editor called me up, offered me an issue of Dark Stars, and then I got the Outsiders after that, and ironically, I've spent most of my career with DC, thanks to Ken. He's the main reason why I ended up getting work from DC.

[31:38] David: So, you've never sent samples to DC?

[31:42] Paul: I wasn't familiar with their books at all.

[31:46] David: I feel like, John, isn't that just like the cream rising the top? Right, John?

[31:52] Paul: The first time I bought DC Comics is when John Byrne went and started doing Superman. So that's why when I first met Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, most people were like, and I'm like, “I remember the Strange Fate issue he did. Now, i’m working backwards it's “oh my god. Yeah, he's a master.” There's no doubt he's a king amongst comic book artists, but I was ignorant of most of the stuff he had done. Well, except for Underoos. All the DC style guides was his, but one of the jokes was like, “Yeah, I spent most of my career with DC, but I never read their books growing up.” I love working with them. They've been a fantastic company to work with, and I had some great experiences.

[32:47] David: I guess if I had to be pegged, I would say that I was a Marvel guy too. But I think I'm a lot like you and John in that I'm mostly just interested in the talent behind the books. I've never considered myself a fan of Batman or Spiderman, or whatever it is. I've always been a fan of Jim Lee or Travis Charest. I wouldn't consider myself a DC guy if I really had to think about it. Although, probably one of my all time favorite books is a DC book. Frank Miller's Dark Knight is probably still one of my top, definitely in my top five, still to this day.

[33:23] John: You broke up a little bit. It didn't sound like you said Captain Carrot when you said that. It sounds like you said a different comic.

[33:35] David: Very good point. That legit is one of my all-time favorite comics. What the heck is Megastar?

[33:43] Paul: That was for Acclaim Comics. It was Dan Slott and myself. They had these digests books for younger readers, and Dan came up with the Megastar idea. It's basically like Dial H for Hero, where it's a young female character and she could transform herself into different heroes. It was funny because this is late 90s, I believe, I did this with Dan. It was before Dan was Dan Slott, and I remember probably around 2000, when I was working on Titans for DC, I was just not in a good place, as far as, I wasn't happy with what I was doing. I needed a change, and Dan and I were actually talking about trying to pitch Marvel on a She-Hulk book. Wouldn't it be great if we could get Adam Hughes to do the covers? Yeah, that sounds great. Well, I ended up getting the call to go to CrossGen, and ironically, what was the first book I worked on after CrossGen went belly up? First book with Marvel? She-Hulk with Dan Slott. So, it's funny how things work out like that, but yeah, I think Dan, outside of the acclaimed stuff, I think he was writing Ren & Stimpy for Marvel at that time, and we just hit it off. His goofy, quirky sensibilities in comics pretty much connected with my own. So, that's why, when we did the Great Lakes Avengers movie series, to this day, that's it's one of my favorite projects. A lot of people don't like Great Lakes Avengers. Man, I had a blast on that book.

[35:32] David: You could tell. I really liked that project that you guys did together. You could tell you guys were having fun for sure.

[35:37] Paul: All the Squirrel Girl fans out there can thank me and Dan for basically bringing her back. That was the first book that she popped up in.

[35:48] David: And made her interesting. I didn't know much about Squirrel Girl before that series for sure.

[35:55] John: Yeah, I don't know if you've ever heard this, maybe you probably have, but internally at Marvel, when that book was coming up. Tom Brevoort did not believe it was going to get approved, and he wanted it approved. But he didn't think it was going to be and at one meeting he said if this ever gets approved, I'm going to jump up on this table and dance, and he did climb up on to a conference table and dance after that book got approved.

[36:19] Paul: Are you talking about Great Lakes Avengers? Well, because we did some stuff in that book that I'm surprised actually got through. I think we had a title page where it was just basically vomit in the toilet stall. This was after Big Bertha had, that's how she would get slim. She would go into basically a bulimic thing. I’m stunned that we got away with that. Now, we're seeing there were scenes of Mr Immortal trying to find ways to kill himself. Dan, basically, I think he left that up to me to just come up with different ideas, and again, I'm stunned that we got away with it. But yeah, after Great Lakes Avengers, I kept bugging Dan, like “we’ve got to do another mini.” Dan was on Spider Man at the time and he's like, “Nah, Marvel wont let me. Now that I’m Spider Man, it's no more of the goofy books. They want me to be serious.” That's too bad. That's too bad. It was a lot of fun.

[37:35] David: Corporate always taken the fun out of comics, man.

[37:38] Paul: I'm glad to hear that story about Brevoort. That sounds about right. Because yeah, I'm stunned that that book came out.

[37:47] David: We need more of that stuff. That's comics to me for sure.

[37:51] Paul: Well, I mean, again, one of my two favorite books outside of the Marvel stuff, growing up, I bought a lot of independent stuff and Megaton Man by Don Simpson and Milk and Cheese by Evan Dorkin are two of my favorites, and that was some weird type stuff. I bought a lot of Buddy. I bought a lot of his stuff. So, it was quirky off center stuff I tended to gravitate towards. So, of course, Dan Slott would be the perfect guy to work with for that.

[38:29] John: It's hard for me to wrap my mind around somebody that grew up or whatever with Dan Slott’s Spider Man in existence, that's the Dan Slott they know not the Dan Slott that was Great Lakes Avengers, She-Hulk. You did that Arkham series at DC and that seemed to be the thing that was like, “Oh, we can do serious stuff too.” Not that Spiderman was super serious. It was funny, but he's one of the people, whenever I see people getting mad at him, I'm like, “but he's a goofy guy. He's being silly.” I mean, I love Dan.

[39:04] Paul: The funny thing is Dan is one of those comic fans that'll probably get into arguments with people about characters. Dan loves that stuff so much that he'll throw down with anybody. There were so many times, I'd be like, “Dan, just get off the message board. Stop. Stop it.” But I think he liked it. I think he enjoyed it. 

[39:27] John: yeah. Within the last two or three weeks I've made reference to this thing that I've always had with Dan, that I've always remembered was there a bunch of Marvel retreats where every time he would talk about how Triathlon was going to be the new 3D Man in  Avengers Academy. But I just remember him saying that phrase so many times, at so many retreats and then Triathlon becomes the new 3D Man. It was these two characters that nobody's ever heard of, now he’s excited about one of them was becoming the other one.

[39:55] David: He's taking up time at the Marvel retreat to do a dissertation on how Triathlon-

[33:59] John: in a genuine way.

[40:03] David: It's going to be the important thing. I love it

[40:06] John: It was a great comic. It was good when it happened. It was great.

[40:11] Paul: I guess I would give the average fan that much more. Especially the ones that take it pretty seriously and love their comics. When they see someone like Dan become what he has been, “cool. That could be me.” Someone who loves comics that much, I would look at it as being an inspiration. 

[40:35] David: Absolutely. Yeah. Look, nobody's in comic books to get rich, right? We're not doing this.

[40:41] Paul: Not intentionally, no. If it happens, great,

[40:45] David: I think we're all  doing this because we have a love for the medium in some way, shape, or form.

[40:51] Paul: telling stories. That's what it's all about.

[40:54] John: it's interesting to find out that that’s the stuff you were reading. I was a huge Peter Bagge Hate fan, and reading Eight Ball and all that stuff before there was a market where you could just make graphic novels and not have to be publishing this stuff through a direct market. That was Roberta Gregory stuff, all that kind of stuff at that time. But what kind of stuff do you like working on? What's your favorite type of thing to work on? Or do you have that?

[41:22] Paul: Well, I mean, the Others was a blast to work on.

[41:25] John: That's what I was fishing for.

[41:29] Paul: Seriously, because it was great that we could actually come up with the characters. So I mean, they weren't established characters, we6d call minis at that time. So, it was basically a blank slate, just to have fun with it. I'm not really big with a lot of tech and hardware type stuff, i like more organic, and once people see the stuff in the Others, there's a lot of organic stuff going on.

[42:00] David: That's a good way to put it.

[42:02] Paul: I mean, I like stuff, too, that has a sense of humor, and that's why the Great Lakes Avengers was so much fun to work with. I think I've spent most of my career trying whatever was available. So, I try to find something in the project that I'm going to enjoy working on. So, I've never really set my sights on “Well, this is exactly what I want to work on. Hey, what's available? All right, I'll do it.” So that's that's kind of been most of my career.

[42:30] David: That's kind of fascinating to me, Paul. I think most people come in, and they've got that one thing that they want to do at some point, and it's fascinating to hear you say that, because you said that to me a while ago, I think the question that I asked you was what if you were going to write your own book, or do your own book, what was it going to be? What is your answer to that?

[42:55] Paul: Well, it's tough because I've never really thought that way. I think with projects for me now, it's more about who I'm working with than what the project actually is. So, if it's a writer I enjoy. Hopefully, John and I will be able to work on another thing in the future and if I got to work with Dan Slott, or Jeff Parker, the different writers that are just fun to work with,  Ron Meyers. We’re doing that John Carter thing together now, so that's going to be a lot of fun.

[43:31] David: I'll make sure that he knows you mentioned it, so he can send you a check.

[43:37] Paul: Nah, he won't. I was going to say, we know Ron pretty well. It's probably not going to happen. But no, I think something that's more organic. I think that kind of thing would be a lot of fun to do. But again, it boils down to just telling stories.

[44:02] David: I saw somewhere that the one project you haven't done tha would scratch an itch would be working on Spider Man. So story wise, or visually, what would you want to bring to that, that maybe hasn't been done? Anything? Or is it just “I just want to do that.”

[44:20] Paul: With Spider Man, I mean, they had serious stories, but there was also the classic Spider Man sense of fun about it, and the freedom with the way Spider Man moves, and he had a fantastic Rogue's gallery of villains. I just think doing that kind of thing is, would be a lot of fun. I mean, I never go into a project thinking I'm going to bring something different to it. I just want to, I don't know, I always looked at my stuff as being traditional American superhero style, and again, I'm not looking to reinvent anything. If I do accidentally, that'd be great, but, no, I just want to tell a decent story visually, and that's pretty much my goal. Try to do the best I can at that time, and if people like it, even better.

[45:15] David: There's no doubt that people like it.

[45:16] Paul: Yeah, I've had a lot of people that really liked the run of the Hulk that I did.

[45:20] David: it's certainly a working, successful formula. It really has served you well.

[45:26] Paul: I hope so. Now again, you know, I've been at it for what, 30 plus years, so I must be doing something right.

[45:32] David: Well, and the work is just top notch. You're A-level talent. I know that you're saying you're still looking up but there's a whole lot of people that are looking up at you, without a doubt. John, I've only got one more question, but did you have anything else coming up for you?

[45:49] John: I was just Fanboying. When those pages were coming in on the Others, it was just a treat every time I opened it. Every design. Yeah, I remember you talking about the tech stuff. Yeah, I remember that. Oh, yeah. There's something like putting them in some sort of tech gear. That's not my thing.

[46:10] Paul: Yeah, I think later on, some of the  characters are armored up a little.

[46:17] David: They get teched up a little bit.

[46:19] Paul: Yeah, it's not not exactly the kind of stuff I enjoy.

[46:22] David: You might not enjoy it, but you do it exceptionally well.

[46:27] Paul: When I was doing Cyborg for DC during the whole Rebirth thing, I had originally turned it down, the editor was like, “why? I always wanted to see you draw an Iron Man character.” I have a hard time with that kind of stuff, but I ended up enjoying a lot of the stuff I did on Cyborg. I look back at some of those pages, like, “tat's not not too bad.” If it was more organic tech, I can have fun with that.

[46:55] David: I really enjoyed your take on Cyborg on 52. I thought it was really, really well done.

[47:03] Paul: That was Rebirth stuff.

[47:04] David: Oh, that was Rebirth. I'm sorry.

[47:05] Paul: New 52 was Aquaman.

[47:08] David: So my last question, what is your dream project, and why is it an eight page Speedball pitch with us?

[47:18] Paul: I'm actually stunned that Dan Slott hasn't proposed something like that yet. So

[47:26] David: If Dan's listening to this podcast and he steals our idea, John, I'm going to lose my mind.

[47:30] Paul: Well, it's funny because I can almost guarantee, once a year, I'll  get a call from Dan, and he’s like, “Hey, we’ve got to work on something together.” It's like, Dude, you're the one who's got the pull at Marvel. All you have to do is throw my name in, so yeah. “I'm working on Fantastic Four.” I'd love to do that, but Dan's bouncing off the walls at all his ideas. So, I don't think he spends enough time just to focus and say, “Okay, we're going to get this project off the ground.” Now, who is this Speedball you talk about?

[48:06] David: Come on. You know who we're talking about.

[48:09] Paul: Isn't he the one responsible for the Civil War?

[48:12] David: We're ignoring that piece of continuity.That's not part of what we're trying to do here. We're  trying to have fun. John and I are trying to have fun. I don't have anything else, John. Do you? I feel like we've done a pretty good business.

[48:29] John: I feel like I could probably go on for a couple more hours. We probably shouldn’t. This is our longest one so far. So I'm good.

[48:36] Paul: Not enough questions about Superboy and the Ravers.

[48:41] David: I have let you down and I apologize. I will make it up to you.

[48:46] Paul: I remember when I first took that project, Ron Marz was like “why are you leaving Green Lantern?” I was excited about Green Lantern too, and I was hoping Daryl Banks hit his deadlines and stuff, but Superboy and the Ravers was a regular book. So, hey, got to take my chances. Fortunately, it didn’t destroy my career.

[49:05] David: John and I are going to go back and immediately read the Superboy. I know, John, just like me, tonight we're going to find Superboy and the Ravers issues one through nine on eBay and and buy it, if it's not in the DC comic app.

[49:20] Paul: Karl Kesel/Steve Mattsson.

[49:24] David: I vaguely remember it but I definitely need to read it again. Paul, you sell your original art at just way too cheap, if I'm being honest. But you can be found at PaulPelletierart.com. There's some fantastic stuff up there. Some of the stuff we've been talking about. Aquaman, Cyborg, I saw some Batgirl pages up there.

[49:59] Paul: Well, you know what? My brother gave me some guff about selling my pages too cheap, and well, if that's the case, then why do I have a website full of it?

[50:07] David: I'm about to buy a Jabberjaw page, by the way. I want to buy it before this podcast goes out and people remember that you did that amazing thing.

[50:18] Paul: And by the way, I did come across my Batgirl refrigerator page. So, I have a scan of that. Remember, we were talking about the whole Ron Marz Green Lantern refrigerator incident, I guess. Yeah, we did an homage to Batgirl. So, I did come across that page. I’ll have to send you a scan.

[50:41] David: Okay, fantastic. I need to see that. Alright, Paul. Thank you so much, sir. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. it was super fun.

[50:51] Paul: My pleasure, and hopefully we all get to work on another project.

[50:55] David: Yeah, I'm working on it. Well, after Speedball. I'm working on it. I'll have something to talk about, I think, in two or three months.

[51:04] Paul: Awesome. Cool.

[51:05] John: Thanks for coming here. Paul. Thanks, everybody else for joining us.

[51:08] David: You can start recording now, too. That was a good practice session.

[51:11] John: Thanks a lot.

Thanks for joining us, and please subscribe, tell your friends about us, leave a review and comments. Check out www.cornerbox.club for updates, and come back and join us next week for another episode of The Corner Box with John and David.