Welcome to The Corner Box, where your hosts, David Hedgecock and John Barber, lean into their decades of comic book industry experience, writing, drawing, editing, and publishing. They'll talk to fellow professionals, deep dive into influential and overlooked works, and analyze the state of the art and business of comics and pop culture. Thanks for joining us on The Corner Box.

[00:28] John Barber: Hello, and welcome to The Corner Box. I'm one of your hosts, John Barber, and with me, as always,

[00:34] David Hedgecock: David Hedgecock.

[00:35] John: With us, a frequent guest, Kirt Burdick. Welcome back.

[00:39] Kirt Burdick: Oh, thank you.

[00:40] John: I think, as always, when you come on, you’ve got a Kickstarter up now, or coming up.

[00:45] Kirt: Coming up, February 1st. Actually, there's going to be two Kickstarters that I'm going to be a part of. One's mine for Death of Power #6, and then I contributed a page to Don Simpson's Multimensions Kickstarter that launches in the middle of February - February 15th.

[01:05] David: He hasn't come on our podcast yet, Kirt. So, I don't want to—I’m kidding.

[01:12] John: I backed his Megaton Man. A couple of months ago, I got a bunch of random comics. I was reading a bunch of stuff from various eras, and I was astounded by how well Megaton Man holds up. It's so good.

[01:25] Kirt: It's beautiful art. I mean, Don Simpson, I'm a really big fan of his cartooning, and his skill level’s just on a very high level. I was really pretty honored to be a part of his Multimensions. It's his Megaton Man Multiverse. So, I did one page in there, and there's a bunch of other creators. I haven't looked at all of it.

[01:51] David: How did that come about? Did he just reach out to you?

[01:54] Kirt: I did my first East Coast ComiCon with a buddy of mine, over in Baltimore. I did the Baltimore ComiCon last year. I made sure to talk to him, and he proposed it—for me to do some pages, 1 to 3 pages. I was able to do one. Yeah, I had a couple of ideas of stuff, but yeah, it worked out, and I'm really happy with the page that I did. I think it came out really nice. He definitely helped out a lot, too, and that's really cool to get his feedback. I've never really worked with anyone else, outside of a buddy of mine, but that was where I was writing this Mexican wrestling comic, and he would draw it, and then I would do some of the art, and maybe some of the coloring. That was my friend Yann Lee. We did this comic called El Mano, that was based on this cartoon I made a long time ago. Just for learning some animation software, I threw together a Mexican wrestling cartoon.

[02:56] David: Not to be confused with La Mano del Destino, which is a Jay Gonzo Image Comics graphic novel.

[03:04] Kirt: Yeah, this is long before that. I'm sure that one is also based off El Santo, and also, “El Mano,” you don’t say. It’s “La Mano,” but I'm a gringo. So, I can say it. I was thinking, “he's so masculine that it would be El Mano.”

[03:24] David: Only he could re-conjugate the--

[03:27] Kirt: Yeah. Basically, the comic is an example of why appropriation is bad, but the El Santo movies, if you haven't seen them, is amazing. They're incredible 1960s Mexican wrestling films, where El Santo and Blue Demon fight Dracula and Frankenstein. They’re really fantastic.

[03:51] David: John, were you aware of these movies?

[03:53] John: No. I just found your cartoon, and I'm Googling them as we're speaking.

[03:58] David: I don't know how I missed this, but I am all-in on El Santo movies. Fighting Dracula?

[04:03] John: They're real fun.

[04:04] David: And you said El Santo and the Blue Demon? He's got a sidekick named the Blue Demon?

[04:09] Kirt: Yeah, it’s another wrestler. I mean, I think the first movie is El Santo vs the Vampire Women. That’s the first one I saw. I'm not sure.

[04:18] David: But how did I not know about this? This is why we keep bringing you back on the show, Kirt—because you drop little bombs like this.

[04:24] Kirt: This is a wonderful world.

[04:28] David: I’m busy for the rest of the weekend now. We're barely 5 minutes into this podcast, and there's a El Santo rabbit hole that I'm about to dive down into. John’s already there. He's not even paying attention to the podcast anymore. His eyes are all aglow.

[04:42] Kirt: A great rabbit hole to get into, especially if you need any distractions for this next week, or the next four years, spend it in—

[04:54] David: We'll be fine. We're going to be fine. We're just going to be out here creating stuff.

[04:57] Kirt: Yeah.

[05:00] David: So, tell us a little bit about Death of Power #6. Whatever you can. So, the reason that we got you back on, Kirt, is because you posted something on, I think it was on your previous Kickstarters. You never reach out to us. I want all the listeners to know that Kirt is the hardest darn guy to get ahold of. We've been emailing Kirt since November to try to get him back on the show, and the whole time, like “let's promote your new book. I’m super excited for it. I want to talk about it,” and really, for me, John, I just want to get the inside scoop on what's going to happen next. I don't have to wait for the […], but here we are. It's January. I don't have any inside scoop yet. Kirt, I'm very excited about the next issue. I can't wait to read it, but if you want to talk about it a little bit, without spoiling anything for our listeners, and then off-camera, we can absolutely spoil everything, if you want to.

[05:55] Kirt: Was playing around with this idea with a friend. Maybe when I'm done with the actual series, which I'm hoping in the next year, I am able to complete the whole thing. That's really dependent on if I have the time, balancing my work schedule with my production schedule for the comic, my day job. I have to balance those things out.

[06:22] David: Kirt, you need to know—we relaunched the podcast in October with a New #1, because comic books have a New #1. Yeah, we're in Season 2. #1 came out in October, and we went from three full-time listeners to four, with the New #1. So, now we have four dedicated regular weekly listeners now. Only two of those are me and John. So, for the new listener that we now have, that maybe has never been exposed to the Kirt Burdick Universe, let's do broad strokes. What is Death of Power? And then we can focus down in on what's happening with the new campaign.

[07:08] Kirt: So, Death of Power is a bootleg doujinshi—doujinshis are Japanese porn comics, satires of mainstream trademark properties, and this is my doujinshi bootleg version of the Death of Superman, and that was inspired by a show called Cartoonist Kayfabe. They did a review of Superman #75, where Superman dies. That's a really classic Cartoonist Kayfabe episode. They gave a shout out to have the Kayfabe community do their version of the Death of Superman. It was during Covid. So, I decided, “fuck it. I'll do it,” and I did my version of Death of Superman, called Death of Power, and that was pretty successful for me. So, I wrote out an outline of where I would take the Death of Superman, and how I would think about ending the story of Superman, or the superhero, and I just started. I wrote out a relatively tight outline. Obviously, certain things changed, and I just started doing issue-by-issue, and that's been a really fun experience, for me, analyzing and drawing this superhero fantasy to a conclusion, and that's where my mindset is—bringing it to a conclusion, because that's one of my criticisms of modern superhero comics, or American comics, in general, and this has changed over the last 20 years, but in general, and primarily, the biggest issue with superhero comics is that there's no conclusion.

It's designed to never have a conclusion, and it's designed that way, not from a narrative interest. It's designed that way from a marketing interest. Batman will always be Bruce Wayne, and he will always be between 18 and 35. Obviously, his approach to reducing crime fails, because Gotham City is always a fucking crime zone, but anyways. Now, with Star Wars, the Empire is always, somehow, a threat or dominant, and there always needs to be a rebel alliance. It's very cynical and--

[09:52] David: And apparently there always needs to be a new Death Star being developed. It's very odd to me that every single movie has a new Death Star now. Really? That's it? It’s very frustrating to me that that’s the story trope that they've hung everything on as being necessary for any Star Wars movie.

[10:13] Kirt: So, I do find that with superhero genre, the current form of mass-marketed genre fiction, that are controlled by corporations now, as opposed to creators or a single creator, there is no interest in having a conclusion in anything, and that’s what makes it feel like fast food. That's the equivalent of narrative fast food, and the fact the people reading it, even if there is a conclusion, Warren Ellis wrote his version of the Death of Batman. As a reader, that's meaningless. Yeah, Superman can die, but it's meaningless. He’s obviously going to keep coming back. I thought, when Mark Hamill was deepfaked in that second season of Mandalorian, they did a good job, and it was interesting, and it had a really good story beat, but at the same time, it's very depressing, because now they can just, in 10 years when the technology gets better, are we going to just see the hidden story of Luke Skywalker, and it's all just artificial?

[11:28] David: They're going to be explaining why Luke ate the fruit in the bowl, in the middle of the table. It’s going to be a whole movie based on how the fruit got there. It's exactly where we're going, Kirt. What’s actually going to happen, Kirt?

[11:43] Kirt: I can't wait.

[11:44] David: I'm going to tell you what happens, and I did not get this idea. I’m going to tell you, though, because here's what's really going to happen. We're going to get to a point, probably really soon, and one of two things is going to happen: the ChatGPT AI is going to hit the singularity, and we're all going to be eradicated.

[12:00] Kirt: Oh, thank God.

[12:01] David: I think that is a very likely outcome. The other outcome, though, is that ChatGPT AI hits singularity, and then is infinitely capable of doing an infinite amount of things in a micro amount of time. So, what we're going to be able to do is, we're going to get on to our Netflix—maybe we've talked about it—we're going to click Star Wars, and it's going to be a menu of options that you're going to choose from—"Hey, I want to be the lead character. I want to play Han Solo in this version of Star Wars. In this version of Star Wars, I want the bad guys to win, and I would like Princess Leia to make out with Chewbacca,” and whatever else, stuff you want to happen, you'll be able to just input all that in, and then the Netflix AI will just spit that movie out for you, and you'll be watching your version of Star Wars. It's just going to be infinite fanfic, is what we're going to fall into, and then other people will be able to watch your version of the fanfic, and people will create communities around their fanfic. So, Kirt, you will get in there and create your version of Star Wars, with the beginning, middle, and definitive ends, and everyone will glom onto your version of it on Netflix. You'll make $3, is what I'm […].

[13:11] John: Yeah, a […].

[13:12] David: […] Anyway, I think that's actually where we're going. I think we're so rapidly bifurcating away from media being produced with any level of professionalism that—I mean, we're already there.

[13:27] Kirt: I'm not sure if that will happen that way, but I do think producers, the people in charge, that is what they would love to have. What Netflix would love is that. Even though, if you actually look at the energy-use and the infrastructure needed to produce that nightmarish vision that you just described, the use of resources and the use of energy to produce something like that would be generationally embarrassing, and that's why a lot of these companies are now going like, “oh, well. It’s fine. We know the energy usage and resource usage is a lot. We'll get Three-Mile Island working again. We’ll just use nuclear power. That's not a problem.”

[14:26] David: So, Netflix will start owning nuclear power plants.

[14:28] Kirt: Yeah.

[14:49] David: Well, I don't think we're very far away from cold fusion, either, and […] solve that problem.

[14:33] John: Cold fusion would solve that problem, and it's not a real thing, yet. 

[14:37] Kirt: But it isn't a real thing. That's the problem, and cold fusion—

[14:40] David: I'm telling you, they're close.

[14:42] Kirt: Even actual fusion, I mean, there is a chance that they could have ignition in the next twenty years, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the infrastructure is going to be viable, as an energy source, within the next 20 years, even if a sizable ignition happens, and that's if the fusion ignition happens that produces energy beyond all the energy that went into the fusion reactor and stored it.

[15:22] David: Kirt, your brain is way too big to be able to—we just lost the two listeners that were here for comic books. You're going down the—

[15:31] Kirt: I actually don’t know what I’m talking about.

[15:33] David: Oh, okay. Well, then, keep going.

[15:36] Kirt: But there is a lot of wishful thinking, and the one positive about this idea that we’ll have nuclear reactors to fuel our ability to make Batman fan fiction with Chewbacca is that one of those memes will cause a nuclear meltdown, and I think that's good. That would be awesome. Like, “Give Batman tits,” and then that’s the thing that causes Three-Mile Island’s core to melt down, and then millions die. I mean, if we have to go, if we have to end society, that is how I would like society to end.

[16:24] David: I don't think that's what we want, as a society, but it's probably what we deserve. I think, Joker tits meme taking down […]—that's the Joker's second, third, etc. real-world deaths, because he’s only got one or two under his belt.

[16:42] Kirt: I mean, it's a terrible movie, but at the end of AI: Artificial Intelligence, when the alien robots are doing an anthropological study and digging up the first robot—that weird ending for that dumb movie, but it's basically these aliens doing the archaeological research on the past civilization that lived on planet Earth, and they discover this society died from a Midjourney meme that created a nuclear meltdown. That is just going to be mind-blowing. I think that's going to be beautiful.

[17:29] John: Using one of the Photoshop tools, circling Earth in the sky, and say, “remove Earth.” That's the wrong thing to tell the AI.

[17:37] Kirt: Yeah, it'll be the touch up tool, the healing brush tool. “Get rid of that.”

[17:46] David: Well, so, there you go, dear listeners. That is Death of Power, in a nutshell.

[17:52] Kirt: Yeah. So, yeah, I'm trying to, as our society concludes, I want the superhero mythos. Ideally, I have four issues after Issue #6 to do. That’s what I have planned.

[18:04] David: Oh, okay. So, you're at 10?

[18:07] Kirt: I'm at 10 now, yeah.

[18:08] David: The last time we talked, you were a little squishy on it—anything between 9 and 12, and you were leaning more towards 9. So, you think it got locked in around 10 now?

[18:17] Kirt: It is locked in. I did really rough thumbnails for the last four issues, and I really wanted it to be three more issues, just so I can get it done, but between the next issue I'm working on, which is Issue #7 and Issue #8, I wanted that to be just one issue, but it had to be two issues. There's going to be a lot of big, epic double-spreads. So, it might make it more complex to draw. It always depends.

[18:47] David: I would like to put in a request for one of two things. Either, a vertical double-page spread--

[18:54] Kirt: That'll be cool.

[18:56] David: Or, alternately, a fold-out triple. At some point, you’ve got to bring a little of the 90s sensibility into this particular piece. I know you're skewing with earlier, a little more 80s superpower stylings, but Death of Superman came in the 90s. You’ve got to do that vertical double-page spread or that fold-out Jim Lee--

[19:23] Kirt: If I could do it, I would totally do it. I don't know about the production of how to make that work.

[19:29] David: The other thing that you’ve got to think about, if you're really going to get meta is, you’ve got to do the Sabotage-style storyline. When McFarlane and Liefeld did the crossover between X-Force and Spider-Man, and it was horizontal. The whole issue was done in a horizontal format. Edgy. That was awesome.

[19:55] Kirt: […] somewhere.

[19:59] David: I don’t know. I was 12/13, something like that. Blew my mind. I was like, “oh, my God, I have to turn this comic book 90 degrees to read it.”

[20:08] Kirt: Didn’t they use that as the excuse, the editors didn't let someone’s eye get stabbed, and they were like, “well, we have to form our own company now. You cannot let our voices not be heard.” I think it was Juggernaut. Someone stabbed Juggernaut’s eye.

[20:27] David: Shatterstar.

[20:28] Kirt: Yeah, Shatterstar stabbed Juggernaut’s eye, and they were like, “how dare you limit my speech.”

[20:36] John: They ran that in Marvel Age. They ran the actual panel in Marvel Age. I edited one of the book collections of it, and it's in there. I think I may have looked into if it would have been possible to put that panel into the right place, but the quality doesn't exist. I think it was a scan of an issue of Marvel Age, or something.

[20:56] Kirt: I mean, at this point, they could reprint it as it was originally intended.

[21:01] John: I don't think they have the material that's the same level of quality as the other pages. You'd be able to tell that panel came from a different source. I could be wrong. There could be more stuff somewhere.

[21:10] David: You know what, John, though, I love that, for you, that's such an important thing.  You're like, “there's no way we can do it because the quality of the […].” In the meantime, every other comic fan’s like, “yeah, give me that. I don't care what it looks like. I won’t even notice.”

[21:25] John: Yeah. That’s a thing I’ve professionally thought about.

[21:29] Kirt: I was playing around with the idea of if I, fingers crossed, get this whole series done, redoing the Death of Power Deluxe Issue #1, recoloring with the 90s color, the early Image color, with all the gradients.

[21:53] David: And then you could do a manga version, where it's black and white, but with a bunch of extra speed lines.

[21:58] Kirt: That sounds like work.

[21:59] David: Oh, yeah, okay. My bad.

[22:00] Kirt: Unless I just get a texture pack, or something.

[22:09] David: So, Death and Power is basically your take on Death of Superman, which was a challenge that was thrown out by Ed Piskor and crew over at [Cartoonist] Kayfabe. You did this one issue, which was incredibly well received, and one of the bestselling things, I think you said, that you'd ever done. So, then you said, “well, I've got some more to talk about here,” and now you've expanded out to this, what it sounds like, 10-issue series, which you’re halfway done. You’re going to do this. You're going to make this happen. Even more so, I'm assuming you've actually already finished Issue #6, because I don't think your Kickstarter is until Issue #6 is done, right?

[22:48] Kirt: Yeah, Issue #6 is the next Kickstarter. I have the test copy here.

[22:54] David: Oh, nice.

[22:56] Kirt: So, actually, I’ve got my zine. I did a zine of all my old paintings from when I studied painting. So, that's going to be the extra zine.

[23:07] John: Oh, cool.

[23:08] Kirt: I'm going to try to do a T-shirt this time. So, I just finished doing a T-shirt design. I’m talking with a friend of mine. He screens his own T-shirts for his side gig. So, I might have him--

[23:18] David: Can it be the image where Plastic Man is trying to punch Wonder Woman with his balls sack, as she ducks underneath him? No? Can you do that? Okay.

[23:32] Kirt: I don't know if that would be the most marketable T-shirt.

[23:39] John: Here I am, sitting here in a Bluey T-shirt, thinking, “I hope this T-shirt is one I can wear,” and then David comes in with, “well, what if it's Plastic Man's balls?”

[23:50] David: But it's Plastic Man balls trying to box Wonder Woman.

[23:55] Kirt: A hard T-shirt to sell at WonderCon. “Hey, little girl. You like Wonder Woman?”

[24:02] David: Oh, Jesus.

[24:04] John: It's America in 2025. That might be fine. I think it's going to be okay by this summer.

[24:10] David: It's John's new favorite phrase. “It’s America in 2025. We can do anything.” The possibilities are endless. I'm really excited for this next issue, Kirt, because you really left us on a crazy cliffhanger. Man, where to keep going from here? So, is there anything else you can tease about it?

[24:28] Kirt: I can, but--

[24:29] David: When you went to Baltimore ComiCon, what was your sales pitch to people walking by?

[24:34] Kirt: I’m not very good with sales pitches.

[24:37] David: Was that your opener? “Oh, hey. Come over here. I'm not very good at sales pitches. I want to talk to you.” Is that how you opened?

[24:41] Kirt: Yeah. My sales pitch is, “what are you looking at?”

[24:47] David: “Hey, you want to fight? You looking at my […]. Hey, little girl, don't make me punch you. Stop looking over here.”

[24:55] Kirt: What do you want?

[24:56] David: Actually, we should not have had any children.

[25:00] Kirt: I was drawing in my sketchbook, and I just said, “what?” When anyone walked up, “what?” I didn't make many sales.

[25:09] David: Shocking.

[25:11] Kirt: First, I'd let them know, because I tried to keep all the really gross stuff hidden. So, I’d just say, “this is a really gross version of the Death of Superman.” I think that's what I say. “A very X-rated, gross version of the Death Superman,” especially if there's someone that has kids, or something, because this book, and also my Galacto Pit-Fighter book, which isn't as extreme as Death of Power, but it's still very graphic. A lot of violence. So, I try to just make sure that I don't ruin a kid's day. That's the main issue. So, yeah. I just say it's a really-

[25:54] David: […] You’re showing concern for potential fans, like “hey. Don't read this because it's really graphic and violent, and there’s nudity. There’s some people over there you probably want to buy books from, but don't do this.”

[26:11] Kirt: Yeah, don’t. Just don’t.

[26:14] David: Here, I had ChatGPT write a sales pitch for you, Kirt. I can see you’re struggling. Let's see what our friends at ChatGPT say. I told ChatGPT, “write a sales pitch for Kirt Burdick’s comic book, Death of Power,” and here's what they came up with. Get ready to dive into a world, where a line between hero and villain is razor thin, and the consequences of absolute power are more dangerous than you ever imagined. In Death of Power, Kirt Burdick delivers a gripping, high-stakes narrative that challenges everything you thought you knew about the superhero genre. When an unstoppable force threatens the world, and those with the power to stop it are morally compromised, what happens when the ones who are supposed to protect us fail? The story follows a cast of deeply flawed, complex characters, each grappling with their own versions of power, corruption, and redemption, with breathtaking artwork and a plot that will keep you on the edge of your seat, Death of Power pulls no punches. The stakes: the very survival of humanity itself.

[27:11] Kirt: I was on the fence with this AI stuff, but I'm sold.

[27:21] David: So, all it took was ChatGPT saying a couple of nice things about you, and you're like, “oh, I'm on board, 100%.”

[27:27] Kirt: I like my human touch of saying, “no, it's just a gross version of Death of Superman.”

[27:33] David: So, look, it's working for you, Kirt. You’ve found great success with this thing.

[27:37] Kirt: There's a lot of concern that paper costs, over the next year, is going to go up. Printing costs are going to go up. It's going to be interesting, if those tariffs actually happen, that are threatened. The majority of comics are printed in China. Not only comics, but books are printed in China, and if you're going to be tariffing that infrastructure, that supply chain, you should have an alternative supply chain set up, and that's not the case. We'll see what happens.

[28:16] John: Most American printers are set up to make boxes and bags.

[28:19] Kirt: Oh, really?

[28:20] John: Yeah.

[28:20] Kirt: For single issues, most of those are printed in Canada, and I think there's a couple of printers in the US, but we're supposedly going to be doing tariffs on them, too. Awesome. I mean, whatever. Where’s the replacement supply chain that's domestic, if you're going to be doing these tariffs? That doesn't exist, and there's no investment in that. So, why are you doing the fucking tariffs? It seems ass-backwards, to me, but whatever. It most likely will be one or two superficial presidential, whatever the fuck, where he writes it out—executive orders—of like, “hey, we're going to do tariffs,” and then nothing happens. That’s what I predict is going to happen, but I'm not Nostradamus.

[29:18] David: Well, thankfully, Kirt, John is Nostradamus. He's already proven it this year. John, on an episode, I think was our last podcast that came out, predicted that Diamond Comics Distribution was going to essentially fail in 2025, and literally, one hour after our podcast went out, Diamond Comics Distribution declared bankruptcy. So, we're not sure John caused the destruction of the Diamond Comics distribution, but it's probably very likely, considering how the events unfolded.

[29:52] Kirt: Is he Neo? Is this a glitch in the matrix? Is he bending reality to his will?

[29:58] John: In 1999, Diamond rejected the comic that me and Brendan Cahill did. So, it looks like I got the last laugh, I said, opening a Photoshop file of a drawing of a lacrosse player, in order to reduce and/or increase the amount of beard on that player.

[30:16] David: For work.

[30:17] Kirt: I'm sure Steve Geppi is looking, like “I should have accepted that comic.” I don't know much about bankruptcy. I heard there's Chapter 13, where there's restructuring, and then there's Chapter 11, where there is a closing of a company. […] filed for Chapter 11, I believe. What's the significance of that?

[30:39] John: David, you're the tax guy. So, that seems it should be […].

[30:42] David: I don't know.

[30:43] John: I think Chapter 11 is a reorganization, because Diamond told everyone they'll be paid for their outstanding invoices.

[30:51] Kirt: Okay.

[30:52] John: Lunar, I believe, is not sub-distributing to Diamond. So, Lunar had been shipping stuff to Diamond, and then Diamond had been distributing that, but I think Lunar is no longer doing that.

[31:06] David: They already made an announcement. Lunar already made an announcement that they're re-soliciting or taking orders for all Image Comics that were sub-distributed through Diamond for the next couple of weeks.

[31:18] John: Extending the FOCs on those.

[31:19] David: Yeah, extending FOCs for Image Comics stuff, in particular. Lunar is not doing business with Diamond, currently.

[31:25] Kirt: It used to be, Lunar orders would be distributed by Diamond?

[31:30] John: So, there's a bunch of retailers that would still actually only order through Diamond, even though you effectively have to order through PRH, Lunar, and Diamond to get all the comics now. So, Diamond was sub-distributing stuff. So, PRH and Lunar would be a publisher.

[31:46] Kirt: What’s PRH? Is that Penguin?

[31:48] John: Yeah, Penguin Random House.

[31:50] Kirt: Oh, okay. Penguin Random House.

[31:53] David: They're the 800lb gorilla in the room that basically is taking down Diamond Distribution with the purchase of Boom! Studios. That's my take on it.

[32:01] John: Well, they were the ones that, they were not allowed to buy Hachette. They were nearly going to buy Hachette earlier last year, I believe, which would have put, I don't know, I'm making up this number, 90% of publishing in one—

[32:14] Kirt: For distribution?

[32:15] John: No, just publishing, as a thing—in the hands of one corporation, but I think that was not allowed to happen, or whatever. It didn't happen.

[32:26] David: So, they bought Boom! instead.

[32:27] Kirt: I didn’t know Boom! was bought by Penguin Random House.

[32:29] John: Yeah. Friend of the show, Michael Kelly, is the publisher. I don’t know if […] on Boom! I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing for them.

[32:39] Kirt: It might be a good thing for Boom!

[32:41] John: Yeah, in the sense that Boom! was most Hollywood-designed comic book company. I mean, it was built, initially, to be movie pitches, back when it first came out. That was really what they were trying to do. It's evolved over the years, but now that is absolutely not Penguin Random House’s interest in it.

[32:57] David: I guarantee you that Boom!’s going straight up from here. Boom! will be the #3 publisher within the next 18 months.

[33:07] John: Over Image?

[33:08] David: They're going to eat Image for lunch. They've got Penguin Random House. They’re the big boy in the room now. I don't know if people really realize it, but they are the big boy in the room. Potentially, here’s what’s going to happen beyond this, with this Diamond Distribution stuff is that Boom!, in particular, it seems like Marvel and DC are in a good place, and they're going to be able to continue operations for a while, and I hope that that's the case, but if DC doesn't continue to improve, the business of DC improve,  DC will definitely farm out and license out the product to Boom!, and Boom! will be making Batman comics.

[33:43] Kirt: You think so?

[33:44] David: I don't think that's going to happen, but that will be the next thing that happens. In the meantime, Boom!'s going to own the graphic novel space, and they're going to crush the comic book space. It's going to be shocking.

[33:55] Kirt: Who does Something is Killing the Children, right? Is that them?

[34:00] David: Yeah. Power Rangers.

[34:02] Kirt: Is it IDW or Boom! that does the Star Trek comic?

[34:05] John: It's IDW. Also, Boom! has BRZRKR.

[34:10] Kirt: That's been real successful.

[34:11] John: Yeah. Not to get super Marxist, but when you control the means of distribution, it's a huge advantage. When you look at when the Marvel movies started making billions of dollars, it was exactly when Disney started distributing them, with Avengers. It had a Paramount logo, but that logo was only on there as a sub-deal that Disney started distributing it. That’s when they wound up in IMAX. That's when they wound up using the Disney might to push those movies ahead of everything else. I think David's right. You're going to end up with Penguin Random House being incentivized to push their own comics more than anybody else’s, the same way that amazing coincidence that every kid’s comic that everybody loves is from Scholastic, whichever one that might be. It’s because they're distributing in schools. I love Dog Man, but you learn about Dog Man in school. You don't learn about other stuff there.

[35:01] David: They're not talking about Spider-Boy at those Scholastic school fairs.

[35:04] Kirt: Yeah, no, Scholastic, it is a great entry to graphic novels for kids, though.

[35:12] John: At length, we’ve gone on about Dog Man here. I love it.

[35:15] Kirt: Yeah, Dog Man is really good. I guess, there's a movie coming out.

[35:20] David: It'll definitely be out by the time this comes out. It comes out January 25th, I believe. My son and I, even though my son is no longer the target audience for Dog Man, the graphic novels, were both relatively excited about Dog Man, the movie that's coming out. We're both going to probably see that one on day one. He assured me that he wasn't going to completely break my heart, even though he broke my heart a little bit when he told me Dog Man is probably not for him anymore, in the most kind, mild way that he possibly could have. I was devastated, slightly, but we're still going to the movie. So, I have that to hold on to still, but no, big Dog Man fans. I was telling him the other day, I was like, “oh, you know what, son? It's okay. I didn't like Dog Man as much as Captain Underpants anyway.” So, I'm already trying to pivot and figure out a way to not make it so precious and important.

[36:10] John: I mean, the natural progression, have you given him Death of Power yet?

[36:16] David: There you go. Maybe a few more years before we dive into Death of Powers together.

[36:23] Kirt: On Death of Power, I always put “not for kids,” and I was thinking, I could also do a kid’s version of Death to Power, an actual Dog Man-style kids’ version, and it'll say “for kids” on it, and it'll be Death of Kids, or something. That would be my pitch. Death of Kids.

[36:43] John: That's brilliant, I think, because one of the things that has happened with Superman or Batman, or whatever, since the Death of Superman is, there is a ton of material about, especially Batman, but also Superman, that is not for kids, in a way that just wasn't a thing. I mean, there are video games that kids shouldn't be playing, or a ton of movies that are, if not R-rated, edge of R-rated, and you had Dark Knight. It’s not like you didn't have that in the 80s, but that idea that, “well, you should do a Superman comic for kids,” that's a children's character.

[37:25] Kirt: It’s supposed to be for kids. You're not supposed to take this seriously. He's flying around, stopping crimes. I just read this great old Silver Age Superman story, it’s a Curt Swan illustrated one, where Lex Luthor turns Superman into a child and starts beating him up, and everyone's fine with it, and they're like, “it looks like Superman can't hack it.” So, the crowd is just watching this old bald guy beat up a kid. It's an amazing book.

[38:05] David: What issue is that, Kirt? Do you know? Action Comics?

[38:08] Kirt: [#466] Action Comics, yeah.

[38:09] David: Okay, fantastic.

[38:11] Kirt: Lex Luthor hypnotizes Superman, and since he has super imagination, he can actually make himself younger if he believes he's younger.

[38:23] John: That’s awesome. That’s really good.

[38:28] Kirt: That's a good superpower. Superman could do anything. That really opens the door to—Superman's infinite power, actually. It's so ridiculous, and then at the end of the thing, it’s like, “wait, I'm not a kid,” and then he does become Superman again and beats him up. He punches Lex Luthor, and it just knocks him out, and doesn't blow his brains out of his skull.

[38:54] David: Definitely not a Death of Power version of Superman. So lame. Curt Swan.

[38:00] Kirt: The Silver Age’s powers, in general, are just wild. I think a lot of Grant Morrisons writing really embraces a lot of that stuff, with the All-Star Superman stuff.

[39:12] John: I remember, when I was in junior high, when Doom Patrol was coming out, and it was one of the characters that had every power you haven't thought of, and I was like, “that's so awesome.” Whenever you run into him, you have to think “invulnerability, heat vision,” otherwise, he has those powers.

[39:29] Kirt: Yeah, I really loved his run on Doom Patrol. That was a really fun comic.

[39:34] John: Yeah, it’s one of my all-time favorites.

[39:37] Kirt: I think I need to reread it. It's been a long time since I've read it.

[39:43] David: What are you reading these days, Kirt?

[39:45] Kirt: I'm reading that GI Joe Skybound Edition of the first 50 issues.

[39:50] John: It's a really nice-looking book.

[39:51] Kirt: It's really nice. It really looks good, and I'm also reading, I picked up at the library, this manga by the guy who made Ichi the Killer, called Homunculus. It's very good, but very disturbing. It's about trepanation. This guy trepanates his head, then starts seeing the psychological disorders of different people as Youkai. He visually sees their psychological disorders, but he knows how to fix it by punching their knee, or something. It's a very disturbed story. Very Japanese, in that sense. So, I don't know if I can necessarily recommend it, but it is very well done. I'm also reading Innocent by Shin-Ichi Sakamoto.

[40:49] John: Oh, man. #DRCL was my favorite comic of the year last year.

[40:54] Kirt: Oh, I just figured out, I thought it was Hashtag. It's Count. That's supposed to mean Count.

[41:02] John: Oh, God. Okay.

[41:03] Kirt: Count Dracula.

[41:06] John: Oh, God. I knew it didn't refer to Hashtag. In the comic it refers to the introduction of that key onto the keyboard of a typewriter.

[41:14] Kirt: I think it's called the count. I just figured out reading Volume 3, and then it just clicked.

[41:23] John: I've got Innocent sitting there next to it. I wanted to finish Volume 3 before Innocent, but I love that so much. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I love that guy.

[41:32] Kirt: He's an interesting artist. There's a Manben episode, which is how I found out about Innocent, and luckily that started being published, I think, through Dark Horse here, but there's a Manben episode showing his work process, and he does everything digitally. Yeah, there's a lot of people, especially in the indie communities, that say all digital art sucks. Definitely, digital art can suck, but there's also some people that can really do great things with it, and it has credibility, and I think Shin-Ichi Sakamoto, he's a great example of that. Although, there's certain things that are a little bit too digital in the backgrounds, but man, the way he draws expression, and the way he tells a story, sequentially, is masterful.

[42:23] John: For whatever reason, I think when we were talking about him, I don't know if this is even what happened, but I remember talking about, there was an issue of Groo last year that had an incredible sequence of two-page spreads that were very funny, and you'd see Sergio Aragonés drawing every little bit of that by hand. It's a repetition of backgrounds, but he's redrawn it every time, and then I think, immediately after that, we started talking about #DRCL, now that I know how to say it, I love now, in my old age, seeing people drawing on paper and looking at how that works, but Sakamoto's stuff, I thought, was such a good way of using digital art in a way that you couldn't do this stuff on paper, through the textures, through the stuff where he's got shadows that you can tell are floating in space, in just black and white art. Not that you couldn’t do something like that by hand, but just that his style utilizes digital stuff in a unique way that looks interesting, and then his storytelling. To me, that’s the thing I love most about it. There's a chapter in Volume 3 where it's a musical number. They just straight-up sing a song.

[43:33] Kirt: That was a little too much for me, but it is there. There's some great things in Volume 3, but I’m just not into musicals.

[43:47] David: What?

[43:48] Kirt: I don't mean to rain on your--

[43:49] David: Get off my podcast, Kirt.

[43:51] Kirt: No, but it is really good. There's some really great stuff that happens—I don't want to give it away—in Volume 3. It was shocking. It was like, “oh, shit.” Oh, and also, Tom Scioli, who I think is just a master, all of his stuff is done digitally now, too. It's all done in Procreate.

[44:12] David: Wait, really?

[44:14] Kirt: Yeah. No, he's doing everything.

[44:16] David: Did he do Witchman digitally?

[44:17] Kirt: Witchman’s all-digital, too.

[44:19] David: Are you serious?

[44:20] Kirt: Yeah, and it looks great.

[44:22] David: That son of a gun. He fooled me. He tricked me. I did not get that.

[44:28] Kirt: Yeah.

[44:29] David: Wow. That blows my mind. It’s so great.

[44:35] Kirt: It comes down to how you use the tools.

[44:37] John: Yeah, I totally agree.

[44:39] Kirt: I haven't read Lore Olympus.

[44:45] David: I think when you're using them as tools and not as a crutch, for a thing that you can't—I mean, it’s hard to describe when it's right and when it's not, but there's nothing wrong with using digital as a tool, but it needs to be the human mind and hand that is informing and guiding, and doing the real work. I don't know why or how you can tell the difference between them, but it is glaringly obvious to me when there is that difference, and it definitely is not good when the line has been crossed. It goes from interesting and “oh, I like that” magical, to “man, he just hacked it out,” and I don't want to see that.

[45:28] Kirt: Right. When you see a background that was obviously just line traced and then tweaked in Photoshop, of a photograph, and they're trying to play it off as if “I actually inked that,” that's a little like, “come on.” Well, it takes me out of the story.

[45:52] David: For sure, but if he did the exact same thing and you didn't know that he had done it that way, what is your feeling on that?

[45:59] Kirt: Well, when I think about that issue of what I just described, when someone levels or line traces a photograph and pretends that it's a background, I think of like, “okay. I kind of hate that,” and it pulls me out of the story, but when I see Jack Kirby's photo collages of city backgrounds, I love it. Maybe it is the artistic intent. I can see an artistic intent and experimentation with Jack Kirby using photograph colleges for backgrounds, versus someone trying to make me think they actually drew this really complex background. I think maybe that’s it. It's really the intent of the artist. If I didn't notice it, then I just didn't notice it. At the end of the day, it does come down to the storytelling, like what John was saying about Shin-Ichi Sakamoto, because there are elements of some of his work that does feel too obviously digital, to me, but the storytelling’s so good that that is the focus, and I'll give it a pass, but at the end of the day, even as much as I think Shin-Ichi Sakamoto is a master, I do look at some of the things, and like, “that could have looked a lot better. This could be better if you did it,” but it's still great.

[47:33] John: I mean, I do think there's a generational thing, where I think there's a lot of artists that are younger, that grew up with computers as a drawing tool, like Lore Olympus, like you were saying. That's how people draw, and in a world where the quality of drawing tools was going down—it was going down for a while. I don’t know if […] bottomed out at some point—but the quality of computer drawing was also going straight up. I've drawn a lot of stuff on the computer. I was an early guy that got into that stuff, but I think we were talking about the Time² Collection, the Howard Chaykin one, there's a beauty in Howard Chaykin, or his assistance lines on the original stuff from the 80s, that is absent in Chaykin’s stuff now. He's digitally compositing everything.

[48:21] Kirt: The frustrating thing, I mean, still think Chaykin’s stuff is fantastic.

[48:28] John: Yeah, me too. Day one Fargo Kickstarter, or Zoop, or whatever, buyer—got a signed Howard Chaykin American Flagg! poster.

[48:35] Kirt: Yeah, but I do agree. One of the things I loved about Chaykin was, who did his designs for some of his sound effect letterings, especially in the—

[48:50] John: Ken Bruzenak.

[48:51] Kirt: Yeah. That was so good. I mean, obviously that's—I don't know how Chaykin worked, whether that was just laid out, or if that was all Bruzenak, but it looks so good, and the dialogue lettering looks so good. When you just use vector fonts for that style of lettering, it loses something. It doesn't have the same impact.

[49:19] John: That lettering, especially, was designed to look like it was drawn mechanically, but it was drawn on paper, and then when you have that exact same style by the exact same letterer today, actually doing it mechanically, there’s no opposition to it. It's just the thing that it is, and it's less interesting.

[49:38] Kirt: […] though. That stuff really does bother me, and the over dependence on vector fonts, for lettering—I know it's a necessity, probably for the production, at this point. Are more comics being made by these big studios than in the past?

[49:58] John: This came up on something. I can't remember who it was. Somebody wanted to have John Workman, or somebody, hand-letter a comic, at some point. I don’t remember what the deal was, but the problem is, when you're lettering by hand, you pencil the art and then you letter it, usually, and then it gets inked, and then it gets colored, and then you're done, but that's not the production order of anything these days. It gets fully inked, it gets colored, at the same time it gets lettered. I don't know if he still does, but for a while, Workman was lettering by hand on a computer. He wasn't using fonts. He was drawing all the letters out on a Wacom drawing tablet.

[50:37] David: Interesting. I didn't know that.

[50:38] John: Yeah, I think he was doing Thor for a while, back when Fraction was doing it, and I think that might have been when this came up, but I worked with Tommy Lee Edwards on a bunch of stuff, and he was letter Tommy’s stuff, and he was lettering that on the boards. That would sometimes cause problems if you wanted to change a line of dialogue later. I got brought in to work on a comic called Turf that Tommy--

[51:01] David: Tommy Lee Edwards’ artwork in that book is fantastic. We do not get enough Tommy Lee Edwards. Not to totally derail us.

[51:08] John: We what?

[51:09] David: We don't get enough Tommy Lee Edwards art.

[51:11] John: Jonathan Ross, […]. They hired me to come in and start editing the comic after Issue #1 was done. There was a lot of dialogue on it, let's say, and everybody agreed with that, but there was no way to take the dialogue off, because there wasn't art drawn there, where there was dialogue. So, I asked Mark Millar to come in and write an essay in the back, talking about how too many comics were decompressed. Here's one that gave you your money's worth.

[51:37] David: Smart. Look at you. That is why they brought you in, John, right there, man. Dude, you're such a professional.

[51:44] John: Workman's one of the best letterers of all time, and it was cool as he was trying to figure out how to make that work. Hassan's lettering is awesome, and it's all digital. He's somebody that puts a lot of work into it.

[51:56] Kirt: There's a tool that allows you to have more variation when you build a font. So, there's more substitutions for each A, so that it has more variety. I think the one issue that I don't think you can get around, with using vector fonts, is when you're hand-lettering, you can actually create a rhythm and intensity to what the person’s saying, that is tied completely to the expression and body posture that you drew, of the character. If you're just using a font, even if it does have some substitutions, it's just bland robot-speak, because I was looking at the Moebius’ hand-lettering of Parable. You can tell, it looks great, and I don't even think he used the Ames Guide for it. He’s just writing it, but he's one of the greatest comic artists who ever lived.

[53:03] John: No, I was going to say, Moebius’ stuff, that’s a great example of it. Some of this stuff is not unreadable, but it’s messy. Try to use translation, Dave Baker demonstrated this, there's Google Translator stuff on your phone that you can run over other languages. So, you can read comics in French, or something. It'll translate it on your phone into English as you're going. So, you can see the word balloons change, and it just can't figure out a lot of the letter forms on Mobius’ stuff.

[53:30] Kirt: Hilarious.

[53:36] David: So, Kirt, you said you're reading the reprint GI Joe.

[53:38] Kirt: I do have the new GI Joe. I just read the Duke miniseries. I thought that was great. Really satisfying.

[53:45] David: I really liked that one. I really like what they did with the Cobra Commander miniseries. It was unexpected, but cool. I haven't read the new launch, the new series yet, but I'm anxious to check that out. What else are you reading?

[53:58] Kirt: That's about it, right now. I have a bunch of stuff I'm just trying to make it through. I picked up this collection of this comic called Beano. It's this Kids Mad Magazine from the UK. I just found it at actually a record store. It was $8. So, I picked it up, and that's really wild. It’s really strange.

[54:22] John: It’s got the other Dennis the Menace.

[54:24] Kirt: Yeah, it has the Dennis the Menace, who's this really mean British, black-haired Irish child, or Welsh, I don’t know. He's in the UK. That's been real fascinating. I got a couple of Alan Moore books to read. I got his Bumper Book of Magic. I'm going to read that next, and I have that last volume of Promethea that I haven't read.

[54:46] David: JH Williams III’s stuff?

[54:48] Kirt: Yeah.

[54:49] John: I'm glad to hear that. I love Promethea. Never finished it, and when it was coming out as a comic, I intentionally didn't want to read the last issue or so. I just didn't want it to end, but then that’s turned into, I don't know, 30 years have passed, and I still haven't read it.

[55:04] Kirt: Yeah. I just don't understand time anymore, because part of my mind is like, “oh, ABC Comics. I can't believe Alan Moore is still doing comics,” and part of my mind is like, “oh, yeah, it was a couple of years ago,” but that's 20 years ago. American Best Comics was great fun. Really good stuff. He must have been pissed when that ended up in DC hands again.

[55:30] John: I believe so.

[55:31] Kirt: That must have really been just like, “what the fuck?”

[55:36] John: As I understand, there was a whole thing, where Jim Lee was trying to reassure him that it was going to be okay, and the story I heard, and I know we can confirm it because I know friend of the show, Scott Dunbier, was involved, but it was, I think the Black Dossier, something like they were trying to do a parody—might’ve been a parody of Bertolt Brecht, or something, and the music was owned by Warner Music, which was actually not a related company to Warner Brothers, but there was no way to convince anyone of that. That sounds so unlikely. I think that's when Alan got really mad. That was when people started coming in and telling him he couldn't do stuff that he certainly would have been able to do at WildStorm or at Image.

[56:20] Kirt: Oh, really?

[56:21] John: So, I think, originally, it was supposed to come with a vinyl record and that was a whole-- 

[56:25] Kirt: Well, I know music rights are just a nightmare.

[56:27] John: Sure.

[56:28] David: Don't put lyrics in your comics. It’s a bad idea.

[56:32] Kirt: You have to pay for that?

[56:33] David: Technically.

[56:34] Kirt: Oh, God. Jesus Christ.

[56:37] David: We would have to do things, where we would say 2 words, and then a “…”, and then maybe another word later, so people could infer and figure it out, doing licensed comic books at IDW, but we could not use lyrics, period.

[56:51] Kirt: Jeez. That’s good to know. Alan Moore’s comics have a lot of All Along the Watchtower lyrics. He has some Bob Dylan in Watchmen.

[57:00] John: I bet when Watchmen came out, nobody did anything, and they just put that out, and I bet Warner lawyers have got clearance on all of that since then. Back when I was at Marvel, the lawyers there were aching for a fair use fight. There's an issue of Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter Parker takes a copy of Watchmen to school, and it was the cover of Watchmen, and you can see it. They removed that for the paperbacks, but I think that was because they didn't want to advertise for Watchmen. I remember taking that to legal, and being like, “is it okay if we do this?” They were like, “yeah. Somebody might have a copy of Watchmen. That's fair use. That’s exactly what you can do with that.” There's no way a Disney lawyer would do that now. Just the culture of lawyers in the last 15 years has changed so much.

[57:41] Kirt: Wow.

[57:42] John: I think there is a super solid fair use argument to doing that stuff, but the problem is, you're going to have to make that argument in court, with a bunch of lawyers, if they sue you. That's the financial part of it.

[57:54] David: Yeah, that's the thing. You just don't even want to go there. You don't want to have to pay those fees to stand in front of a judge.

[57:59] Kirt: It's almost like that alone is what limits the creative freedom.

[58:05] David: Well, it wouldn't be as big of a problem if we didn't have a 95-year moratorium on using other people's creative. If that was back to 50 years, or author's lifetime. It's 2025, and we're only now getting access to Popeye the Sailor? Come on, we should’ve been doing way more with that guy a long time ago.

[58:27] Kirt: Yeah, it is stifling. I've seen an argument, I think I've read it somewhere, where one of the reasons, sometimes, it feels our culture is stagnating, artistically, is because of copyright. Was that put in because of Disney extending the copyright of Mickey Mouse, and stuff?

[58:45] John: Yeah, that was always--

[58:47] David: Yeah, and I think that's the problem, is when we're protecting the rights of corporations, and not the rights of human beings, I think that way lies folly, and I think you're right, it is a stifling of creative, and it's not that I just randomly picked Popeye. It's not that I want to—Popeye, 30 years ago, would have been a really nice shorthand for certain things, in terms of the commentary of what's happening within our society. Artistically, using Popeye as a shorthand or a foil, when he was more relevant to the culture, and the culture had a better understanding of who and what Popeye, as an intellectual property, was, it would have been nice to have that, as a tool in the toolbox. So, it's not from a place of exploitation. It’s from a place of artistic expression, in terms of expediency or immediacy, adding gravitas to something, just by the sheer fact that “here's Popeye,” and now 95 years later, that doesn't hold the same weight. Using Popeye the Sailor in 2025, it doesn't hold the same weight, because most people under the age of 50 don't have any connection, whatsoever, with Popeye, nor do they know what it is. The last time they heard of Popeye the Sailor was when Robin Williams did a movie in 1982. It's frustrating and unfortunate that we deal with that, and I don't know why we got off on that tangent, but there you go.

[60:14] Kirt: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I actually recently watched a bunch of old Fleischer cartoons, and it's pretty insane that a kid’s cartoon was—every episode of it's about Pluto trying to assault Olive Oyl. Popeye beating the shit out of him. That was kids’ entertainment.

[60:38] David: That’s when cartoons were good, Kirt.

[60:45] Kirt: I know, man. We've gone soft. You know, Genndy Tartakovsky, the guy who made Samurai Jack, and also Primal, was going to do a Sony Popeye animated cartoon. There used to be, and I'm sure you can still find it, a test reel that he put together. That’s pretty interesting, but I think honestly, for today's sensibility for children's entertainment, it's a little too problematic. It would’ve been really fun. I think, any Tartakovsky. Obviously, Popeye wasn't smoking, and he didn't have tattoos in it.

[61:24] John: See, that's not realistic. Kids today aren't going to understand that if he doesn't have tattoos.

[61:28] Kirt: Yeah, I know. He would have […] piercing, too. A nose ring. A lip ring.

[61:34] David: All right, Kirt. I think we’ve probably eaten up enough of your time.

[61:37] Kirt: Yeah, I had a good time talking about stuff.

[61:39] David: I want you to remember this feeling, Kirt, so that next time I e-mail you, we can get you back on here a little faster.

[61:44] Kirt: I am so sorry. I'm really bad at responding. I get so much spam in my fucking e-mail that these get buried. Not that I'm making—Well, I technically am making an excuse. I will be better.

[61:59] David: You don't need to apologize. We're glad to have you on, and I think we'll be able to get this one out or right around the time your Kickstarter launches. So, one more time, just for those in the back of the room.

[62:09] Kirt: My Death of Power #6 Kickstarter is from February 1st to February 18th, and then, Don Simpson's Kickstarter for his Megaton Man: Multimensions is from February 15th to I think March 15th. […].

[62:31] David: Death of Power #6, February 1st through the 18th. I'm going to be the first in line. Your last Kickstarter, I was very frustrated, because every time I thought I had gotten in there early enough to get one of your original pieces of art offerings, I was late. So, I got one of the pieces that I really wanted. I was very excited, thrilled, and when I got it, I was thrilled to see it. It was a really—I studied that thing for an hour. I loved it, but there was two other pieces that you had posted before that, and I was late, and somebody else got them. So, I'm going to be on pins and needles, February 1st, get in there, and make sure I get some stuff that I want.

[63:04] Kirt: Cool. Awesome.

[63:06] David: Thanks, Kirt. Thanks again. Appreciate having you on. Hopefully, you'll be on again real soon. Congratulations on all your success on the Kickstarters, and I’m very excited for Death of Power #6, February 1st through the 18th.

[63:18] Kirt: Okay, great.

[63:19] John: Thanks a lot for joining us, here on The Corner Box. We'll be back next week. See you then.

[63:22] David: Bye.

Thanks for joining us, and please subscribe, rate, and tell your friends about us. You can find updates and links at www.thecornerbox.club and we’ll be back next week with more from David and John, here at The Corner Box.