Welcome to The Corner Box with David Hedgecock and John Barber. With decades of experience in all aspects of comic book production, David, John, and their guests will give you an in-depth, and insightful look at the past, present, and future of the most exciting medium on the planet—comics—and everything related to it.

[00:24] David Hedgecock: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Corner Box. My name is David, and with me, as always, is my very good friend

[00:30] John Barber: John Barber.

[00:31] David: John, I once again believe that I am some form of Nostradamus. I think my abilities to prognosticate--is that the word I'm looking for?--to divine future events is becoming and more powerful as the days and weeks, and months, and years go on. Evidence of that, John, is that I already know who wins and who loses in the first round of the DC K.O. brackets. I've got the answers. I know who wins, John. Not only that, but I picked 13 of the 16 winners. I did pretty good, and the ones that didn't win--BS, John. They should have won. I picked correctly. Somebody else is wrong, not me.

[01:12] John: That is amazing.

[01:14] David: All right. What are we talking about, John?

[01:16] John: I don't know. I'm trying to puzzle through the DC K.O. brackets. I mentioned to David right before he got on, here's the backstory--I read DC K.O. #1. That's all the backstory, and then David was talking about these brackets that he filled out. He texted those the other week, but having read DC K.O. #1, I didn't think anybody fought. I didn't think there was a bracket.

[01:38] David: Why don't you tell us what you read, John, and then let's see if we can figure out, from what you read, what we're looking at now. There's a whole lot. We’ve got a lot to unpack here, folks. Stick with us, but what we're going to be talking about first is the new big DC crossover, over at DC, called DC K.O., which I think is a fun little way to do an event. You create a whole bracket, like you do with a college basketball series. You’ve got 32 teams--in this case, 32 individual superheroes and supervillains, all battling it out to see who reigns supreme, at the end. Now, I don't know anything about the comic book. I haven't read it, but I just did the marketing part, the filling out of the bracket, because I had to gamble and bet with some people, and see if I could make some money off of this little marketing scam that they’ve got going, but why don't you tell us a little bit about the story, because I believe there is some story behind it. Maybe we can together parse out what exactly it is that's going on here, because we have results already, but it sounds like maybe we shouldn't.

[02:46] John: I have not been following a lot of the stuff leading up to this, or any of the stuff, I guess, leading up to this, but it's all part of All-In, which is, I guess, their big overarching plan that created the Absolute Universe and set up the current status quo, and all the regular DC books. I don't always buy the big crossovers. This one, well, I can tell you exactly why I got attracted to it, was this acetate cover that it had on it.

[03:13] David: Yeah, baby. The acetate got you.

[03:17] John: It really did. It's very nicely made.

[03:19] David: Yeah, it looks cool.

[03:20] John: It says DC K.O. You see a picture of Superman punching underneath, and you open it up, and--well, there's a picture of Superman punching. There aren't a lot of surprises. Since I read this a day or two ago, I've been trying to figure out what I think about it, because I don't want to be shaking my cane at people. Especially--

[03:38] David: That's what we do here.

[03:39] John: Yeah, but I'm significantly different in age than Scott Snyder, who wrote it. So, even that's bizarre, if that was what I was doing. This feels very modern, and very state-of-the-art, in terms of what a crossover like this would be, if that makes any sense. I mean that in every positive way. That's not a backhanded compliment. It's Scott Snyder-y, the way a Marvel crossover from the 2000s was Brian Bendis-y, or whatever. It's still got the feel of the writer on it. Some cool, interesting layouts, and stuff. Some interesting storytelling, beautiful looking art, incredibly intricate lettering by Hassan Otsmane-Elhaou, who is an Eisner Award-Winning letterer--terrific letterer--that really had me questioning whether the role of being really good in intricate lettering is better than the role of being an obtrusive letterer.

[04:31] David: Yeah, interesting.

[04:33] John: Not to go off on a weird tangent before we get into anything else. There's this one panel in here, where Superman's looking out across the world, and he's reflected in the JLA Watchtower window, or something, and he says a line of dialogue, and the line of dialogue is also reflected in the mirror. So, you can see the reflection of it, but it's not a mirror image of the lettering. So, I spent way too long trying to figure out if that's a clue, if that means something, or whatever, and I still don't really know. If that turns out to be a clue, amazing.

[05:06] David: If it was a mistake, though, not so amazing.

[05:08] John: If it's more along the lines of crediting someone, it’s crediting Xermanico for drawing the interlude, when there is no interlude. There are three numbered chapters in this comic. If it's along those lines, then I feel like it broke the rhythm of the storytelling a bit, for me.

[05:23] David: Right. I could see how one would get hung up on something like that, though.

[05:29] John: So, the funny things that I thought reading this thing--just my old man reactions to reading this--there are a bunch of things where I'm reading them. I'm finding out that Time Trapper's Doomsday. I'm like, “what? The Time Trapper's Doomsday? Wow.” So, it turns out, the guy that killed Superman wasn't just some guy. It was actually the Time Trapper, who got turned into Doomsday. That's been revealed somewhere else. That's just a thing you know.

[05:53] David: Really? That's a thing we're supposed to know?

[05:54] John: I don't know.

[05:55] David: I did not know that.

[05:57] John: Right. So, it's got a few things like that. I don't know. I don't feel bad about that. That isn't some betrayal of the Death of Superman, or something. I'm like, “oh, that's […]. Somebody's building a more intricate, complicated story.”

[06:10] David: Yeah. Make Doomsday a little more--give him a little more meaning, in a way.

[06:14] John: Yeah. That's one of those things that I always think is fun, where it's a thing that I had when I was a kid, or whenever I was when it came out, is so wrapped up in the actual continuity of these things that people are doing riffs on it, and building on it, and that's fun. I still have to remind myself that happens sometimes, if that makes sense. There's still a part of me that's like, “well, okay. The baseline of these characters is where they were in 1987,” or whatever, and that's certainly not the case, but it's got a bunch of moments like that. A bunch of superheroes getting together, and then the premise is, Darkseid has returned, and he's a super god. He's from the Omega world, or a world where all the Omega energy was stored. So, they need to have somebody go into the--I'm a little confused with Alpha energy or Omega energy--but the time travelers explained that if you were to do that, it would turn into a tournament, and everybody would have to battle each other to see who does it. So, they go ahead, and do that.

Just wild that there's so much buildup, so much absolute technical proficiency, on every level of this comic, and this is part of the story. I mean, this is just part of what it is. This is just, “we're going to do a tournament. This is Injustice. This is the Injustice video game. We're just setting it up differently,” and that's part of the fun of it, but that's also part of the thing that slightly bothers me a little bit, if that makes any sense. I don't know. Civil War sets up where you've got superheroes fighting each other, but it gives you a reason for the superheroes to fight each other. The reason the superheroes are fighting each other here is that they're fighting each other. They're going to have to all fight to the death, but when they're done, whoever wins is probably going to be able to bring everybody back to life again. So, they're not really fighting to the death, and that's their setup. That's why they do it. They wouldn't do it if they weren't going to bring everybody back to life, and sure, during the course of the story, something's going to go wrong, and that's their plan. That's just straight up the plan. The plan is, for some reason, “we all have to fight each other. So, we do that.”

[08:03] David: That sounds perfect, to me. I don't know.

[08:05] John: Yeah, no, exactly. It is what Grant Morrison would talk about the Image Comics as being dance music in the 90s, where it's 70s dance music with all the boring parts cut out. This is just the thing you wanted to see. You want to see a bunch of superheroes fighting each other? That is what this is. The end. Everything else is just getting you to that moment, and the comics, it's not like it’s in-jokey and self-aware, but it’s not like it doesn't know that. The comic is totally in on it with you. This isn't looking down on the comic. This is just what the comic is. That's the place you get to. So, you're going to be able to sit there, and make brackets, and stuff, and all that other fun stuff. The funny thing is, the bracket you sent shows who wins the first round.

[08:47] David: Yeah, […] already got winners.

[08:49] John: I went, and made sure I didn't just miss everything, but it ends with this two-page spread of all of the 32 characters. They're the same 32 characters, minus 1 twist that had occurred, which is that the Joker kills Batman, and Joker takes his place. So, Joker's in there, instead of Batman. The rest of it's just epilogues and teasers for the stuff that's going to happen. That's it. No fights having occurred, yet. Everybody's still active in the brackets.

[09:16] David: Well, somebody in marketing is going to lose their job, John, because when you told me that the first issue was out, and that you had read it, I anxiously and eagerly went to my brackets page to see how I did, and they have clear winners distributed on the brackets that I'm looking at right now. So, the book you're showing me is--there's some spoilers ahead, folks--is what we're about to tell you, or we're just somehow looking into the future, and using powers we didn't know we had, which is quite possible. It's quite possible. We've been doing this comic book stuff long enough that it's possible that we somehow plugged into the zeitgeist, in a way that allows us to see into the future.

Let's just go through these brackets, John, and we're just going to have to name the winners. We've established already that we here on The Corner Box are the standard bearers for comic book reporting. We’re those guys, back in the 70s--the guys that reported on Watergate?

[10:14] John: Woodward and Bernstein.

[10:15] David: Yeah, we're the Woodward and Bernstein of modern-day comic book reporting. Spoilers, everybody. It is our duty to share the information that we found online with the click of one single button, and no further work beyond that. Let's go through these brackets, John. I do think this is fun. So, I've been on vacation in the last couple of weeks, as you know, and as possibly our listeners know. Big props, and big thanks to FunTimeGo Editor-in-Chief, Chase Marotz, for filling in for me the last couple of weeks. I hear he did okay. He's still alive. So, there's that. He probably cussed more than he should have, but other than that, how did he do?

[10:59] John: It was great. It was nice having Chase on. Always happy to have Chase on.

[11:03] David: Yeah, he's great. So, anyway, I’ve been on vacation. Just got back, but while I was on vacation, I saw that they had created brackets for this thing. I was like, “man, what a fun little way to get me engaged in a comic book.” It's super simple. Everybody understands brackets. Everybody's bet on The Sweet 16, the Elite 8, Final 4 stuff.

[11:23] John: Yeah. This does tie in with where we left off before you left, about the influences of manga, and stuff like that, coming on to people, because this is Pokémon. There's all kinds of stories like that. This is Naruto. Naruto is all based around getting ready for the tournament, and then having a tournament. So, I think that's an interesting angle on it, too, that it isn't just the sports thing. There's a ton of fiction that everybody's grown up with now.

[11:51] David: That's a very good point, John. Very good point. Heavily manga influenced, when you really think about it. Dragon Ball Z, and what's the other one that has the cards? Yu-Gi-Oh.

[12:02] John: Yeah. Right.

[12:03] David: Yeah. All that. So, we know a little bit about the story. Basically, it's just a big fighty fight. Darkseid's revealed. Not a big surprise there. We've been talking about the fact that Darkseid is probably the big bad in all of this, and that he's probably going to come back, and probably mash the Absolute line into the main line, somehow, in some way, and we rubbed our hands together, and hoped and prayed that wasn’t the case.

[12:23] John: I think it isn’t. I think they're continuing the Absolute line. I think the success of it is […]. Coming out of New York Comic-Con, word is that that's the case, as I understand it.

[12:34] David: I think that our concern, as we brought it up before, was that it's going to become just another world in the multiverse, rather than this own separate thing, its own different, unique, little precious jewel. The concern, months ago, when we were talking about it was, “Darkseid's going to show up, and then it's going to mash it all together, and then Absolute Universe is going to be one of the multiverse worlds,” and it loses some of its luster. It loses some of the reasons why it's so special to me right now, but I'm sure they've got a plan. I'm sure it'll be fine, and at the end of the day, if it is just another world in the multiverse, it's not the worst thing to happen. It's just another thing.

So, here's the brackets, John. Superman versus Giganta. That's a dumb bracket. Everybody knows. Everyone's going to pick Superman on that, and here's the thing. It's not revealed in the comic book, John, but we know who wins that fight. It's Superman, because my bracket tells us. So, by the way, I picked Superman, and I won, and I got that one. Next up is Captain Atom and Power Girl. I thought that was a pretty good matchup. That was an interesting one for me. I decided to go with Captain Atom, just because I'm like, “man, Power Girl, she's good, but Captain Atom's next level.” That guy can manipulate molecules, and stuff. So, I picked him, and I was correct.

[13:45] John: Should I guess as we go through? Because I don't know.

[13:48] David: You don't know?

[13:49] John: I filled one out, but did not successfully save it, or anything.

[13:54] David: Okay, perfect. All right. I'll let you guess then, John. Okay. So, the next one is Guy Gardner versus Firestorm. What's your pick, John?

[14:00] John: I'd go with Guy Gardner.

[14:02] David: Any reasons behind that?

[14:03] John: Not all of Firestorm's yellow. He's Guy Gardner. I feel like he's just been a stronger DC character.

[14:09] David: Well, I think his will is such that he would power his way through this one, and at the end of the day, they really do have a similar power set, but I think Guy Gardner has a little bit more experience. At least the current Firestorm that I'm aware of, Guy Gardner would have a little more experience, and just have more of a will to win. Guy Gardner is going to be the guy that, if he has to, he will cut your throat. I'm not sure that that's the case with this Firestorm. So, I also picked Guy Gardner. We're correct, John.

[14:36] John: All right.

[14:37] David: Next up is Jay Garrick, the original Flash, versus Cheetah.

[14:40] John: I would go with Jay Garrick.

[14:41] David: Oh, okay.

[14:42] John: The Flash is faster than a Cheetah. It's not like the Flash races a Cheetah every year for charity. Superman's Flash is faster than a Cheetah, or else it would be super boring. He could drive. Every DC character that has a car would be winning that race.

[14:58] David: Well, I picked Cheetah, because I just wanted to see the hot chick win, but you are correct, John. Jay Garrick is the winner. I was not correct in this one. So, Jay Garrick moves on into the next bracket. Aquaman versus King Shark, John.

[15:11] John: No offense to King Shark, but one of them's king of sharks. One of them's king of the whole freaking ocean.

[15:16] David: Yeah, no, obviously, Aquaman's going to take that one, and no surprise to anyone, Aquaman does win that bracket. He's moving on. All right. This one's an interesting one. Connor Hawke versus Hawkman.

[15:28] John: Oh, yeah.

[15:29] David: See what they did there?

[15:30] John: I think I picked Connor Hawke, because I know almost nothing about Connor Hawke. I really only know about him from the Grant Morrison Justice League. I at least get that he's Oliver Queen's son. Hawkman. Your guess is as good as mine, but I think I was wrong.

[15:45] David: No, this was a tough one for me, but I went with Hawkman. I just thought that Hawkman--I don't know--he's got the big mace, and he can fly, and what can Connor Hawke do? Shoot a bow and arrow really well. So, I just felt like Hawkman was going to win that one, and as it turns out, I was correct.

[16:01] John: Makes sense.

[16:02] David: All right. Moving on, we've got--this is a good matchup--Lex Luthor versus Black Lightning.

[16:08] John: I think I put down Black Lightning in that one. If they were fighting in Black Lightning's comic, he'd win. Also, I don't think Lex Luthor was getting taken out in round one. I walked into that knowing I was wrong.

[16:20] David: I went with Lex Luthor on this one, because exactly that. I'm like, “man, Black Lightning probably is real close to winning that fight,” because Black Lightning not only has superpowers, but is also the CEO of a major company, and also incredibly intelligent. So, who's going to win that? It's probably going to be Black Lightning, but I went with Lex Luthor as well, because of the history of the DC Universe, and Lex Luthor's been around longer, and sure enough, Lex Luthor wins that one. So, we got that one right, John. This is a good one. The Demon versus Supergirl.

[16:50] John: Yeah. Demon. A fan of the character. Also, any Kryptonian's other weakness is magic. He's going to be all-magic attacks, and he's not going to have any morality, in terms of what he's doing to Supergirl.

[17:03] David: I had The Demon on this one, and then I switched it to Supergirl, and I don't know why. I don't know how I convinced myself that The Demon was going to lose this fight, because for all those exact reasons, John. Of course, he's going to win, but I picked Supergirl, and I was wrong. You were right. All right. Next up, Wonder Woman versus Starro.

[17:22] John: It's going to be Wonder Woman.

[17:26] David: I don't know. For this one, I picked Wonder Woman as well, but Starro--it seems like Starro has a really good chance here. He's a world conqueror. He's not only a world--he's a galaxy conqueror. This guy can manipulate minds with ease, and takes over planets. He's OP, but I'm going to pick Wonder Woman, and guess what, John?

[17:44] John: She snapped him like Maxwell Lord's neck.

[17:46] David: There you go. I mean, that must be what happens. I don't know. I'm interested to see how this one plays out. I'd like to see how Wonder Woman is able to defeat Starro. Maybe she gets the lasso around him, and control his mind before he's able to control her.

[17:58] John: It is a smart matchup with both oddly having mind control powers.

[18:02] David: Yeah, well, Wonder Woman gets the best of it. Anxious to find out how that happens.

[18:05] John: To slightly digress, I've been keeping up with the New History of the DC Universe. The current issue is going through the present day. Everything from when I was a kid through a few years ago. Surprised that Maxwell Lord’s neck snap is still in continuity. That still happened.

[18:20] David: Is that in Issue #2?

[18:21] John: #3.

[18:21] David: Oh, Issue #3. I'm reading on the DC app. So, I'm a little behind on that one, but I'm enjoying that one. That's an interesting read.

[18:28] John: It's a fun nostalgic romp through stuff, and it's just funny to see. I've spent more time reading DC comics, not knowing what parts of stuff I've read is part of the continuity, and what isn't. So, it's just funny to see Mark Waid just going through and pulling all these pieces out from all the different things. I don't know. It's just fun.

[18:47] David: So, the next one up is Lobo versus Plastic Man. Which way are you going with this one, John?

[18:53] John: I know who won this one, because I knew this was one of your picks. I think I would have got Plastic Man, though. 

[19:00] David: Really? If Lobo gets cut, he bleeds more Lobos. You can't fight that. They've never actually used that power, by the way. It's only ever spoken of, but I've never seen it actually employed. Maybe, because nobody can make Lobo bleed. I don't know.

[19:17] John: Lobo wins.

[19:19] David: That's right. The main man brings it home.

[19:22] John: Are we going to wind up with Jason Momoa versus Jason Momoa in this one?

[19:28] David: That'd be fantastic. All right. So, next up, Swamp Thing versus Vixen.

[19:33] John: You’ve got to do--Swamp Thing's elemental. Do I not remember Vixen's power set? I don't see if that's even close.

[19:42] David: I don't know. The only thing I know about this matchup is that I don't know how I could care less about a matchup. I also picked Swamp Thing, and guess what? He won. All right. Next up is Cyborg versus Batwoman, John.

[19:55] John: I guess, I’ve got to go with Cyborg. He's got the tech and brains, and experience.

[20:02] David: At this point, he's practically an original member of the Justice League, and he's definitely an original member of the Teen Titans. This guy's been around. He's got the experience. The current version of Batwoman, she's only been around for a little bit, and she doesn't have any high-tech stuff. She's not even a billionaire. She can't even buy cool stuff, like Bruce can. So, Cyborg, all the way, and definitely, he wins that one. That was a no-brainer. All right. So, this next one's a bit of a shocker, because of what you've revealed, in terms of what happens in the comic book. We have Batman versus Star Sapphire. Who would you pick, John?

[20:33] John: Certainly, I would have picked Batman. He's gone up against any number of Green Lanterns. I don't know if the painting of the room yellow is still a story. I don't know. It was in something else, but he got shot in the back with some rocket thing by the Joker, and didn't make it into the bracket. So, the Joker took his place.

[20:51] David: Did the Joker win? Because it's still Batman. It’s showing as Batman here.

[20:54] John: Again.

[20:55] David: We don't know.

[20:56] John: Hasn't happened in the comic, yet. So, I don't know. The press release says that the Joker will replace Batman in everybody's picks.

[21:05] David: In the bracket.

[21:06] John: If you'd picked Batman, all the way to the end.

[21:08] David: I feel like that's a really horrible bait and switch. People are betting real money on this, I'm sure of it. So, to swap Joker for Batman, there are people in Vegas right now who are losing their minds, because this is the thing that ruins empires, because of course, you're going to pick Batman to win almost all the way to the end, and let's look. If Batman did get to the end, and it was Batman vs Superman, we already know the outcome of that battle. Batman wins. So, it's a very easy and logical leap to go from, have Batman take the whole thing. So, to do this bait and switch, at the last moment, after everyone's placed their bets, horrible. I mean, people are going to lose real money. Me included.

[21:53] John: I hadn't thought of it that way, because I mean, I definitely was thinking this, more along the lines of--not that people don't bet on Pokémon, but on a Pokémon cartoon, or something, where--I don't know--all of a sudden, somebody else comes in. My son was watching Season 3 Episode 20 of a Pokémon cartoon, where the entire series has been one tournament. That isn't usually what the Pokémon cartoon is, but there was one series where it was literally multi-season, one tournament. You're going to have wrinkles like that in there, but yeah, you're right. I can see people being up in arms about that.

[22:28] David: I'm mostly speaking in jest, but I'm talking about the gambling part of it. Anybody that gambled on this, they deserve to have the bait and switch pulled on them. They shouldn't be doing that. This is not something you should be gambling, but the marketing behind this is that, if you win your whole bracket, if you could pick all the winners, it's one in a billion odds, or whatever, but if you pick all the winners, there's a decent prize at the end of this. You get drawn into the comic book, or something. So, people made real decisions. I'm sure there's many people out there who took that very seriously, and Batman was their guy, and now it's Joker. I wouldn't be happy.

[23:02] John: Here's what they should do. Joker should win the whole thing, do exactly what Darkseid did, and make a whole new universe. Launch another Absolute Universe on top of the one that already exists. Not cancel it. Not change it. Launch another one, where it's all in the world the Joker created, and then they have to do this again.

[23:21] David: Just endless iterations of this, until we get to Clayface, and it just all falls apart. I love it. This is perfect. Next up is Red Hood versus Damian Wayne.

[23:36] John: DC can keep letting me vote if Jason Todd dies, and I'll keep voting he dies.

[23:46] David: You were the single vote that had Jason Todd get killed in the original Gotham family? Oh, my God. Famously, he got killed by one vote, or something like that.

[23:55] John: It was a very […]. It was pretty close.

[23:57] David: So, I'm with you, John. I'm 100% behind Damian Wayne. A, Damian Wayne's a bit of a butthole, and he's definitely not okay with killing, and I don't know a lot about Red Hood, but I feel like Red Hood might still have a bit of a moral center. Maybe not. Maybe he's falling completely off the map, and also--I don't know--Damian Wayne's just more of a badass. He's younger, yes, but outside of just the youth aspect of it, Damian Wayne's smarter, and he's just better, in every way, and he knows it. So, I'm perplexed, because we're both wrong, John. Red Hood is moving on in his bracket, and Damian Wayne’s been pushed to the side. A real shocker, John. A real shocker in the bracket. I'm sure this one, in particular, I think, is going to blow up a lot of people's brackets. Certainly, caused some trouble in mine. All right. Next up, Zatanna versus Barda.

[24:45] John: I'm on the record for usually enjoying the Zatanna series that DC bizarrely keeps putting […] as the most popular character in America. So, I know Zatanna's going to win, but I’ve got to go with Barda. Come on.

[24:57] David: I originally had Barda, but I switched, too, John. I picked Zatanna, because DC, weirdly, keeps pumping Zatanna. I'm like, “well, she's definitely going to make it to the next round,” and sure enough, Zatanna wins. All right. So, Zatanna moves on. Barda is pushed to the side. This is the last one in the bracket, John. Our listeners are thanking Kirby for that. They're like, “are we still […]?” They're fast forwarding. All right. Last one. Harley Quinn versus Metamorpho, John.

[25:25] John: Yeah, Harley Quinn. It's like picking Deadpool against whoever Deadpool is against, of course, but Harley Quinn. I mean, it's just the same thing. Of course, Harley Quinn's going to win.

[25:37] David: Yeah. Comic book logic-wise, Metamorpho wins this, hands down. No problem. Speaking in the meta version of this, Harley Quinn’s way more popular, and she's definitely going to win, and guess what, John? She did win the bracket.

[25:49] John: Obviously, taking Batman off of there, whatever problems it caused, at least comes down to, this is one of the biggest Batman writers of all time writing the series. Everybody thinks Batman's going to win. So, you take him off the board. He doesn't even get to compete. He doesn't lose, but he doesn't get to compete. Maybe he comes back, and he wins later. I don't know. I do think that they're making decisions on storytelling things like that, not just total marketing stuff. I think in the comics, Harley Quinn's going to win. Somehow, she'll figure out a way to hit the right hammer thing, or something. It's like Squirrel Girl versus Galactus. Of course, Squirrel Girl--

[26:25] David: I'm fine with it, and also, yeah, all joking aside, and brackets aside, taking Batman off the board is definitely a smart move, and also, the way they take him off is a smart move. Just like you said, he doesn't lose. Basically, he doesn't lose, because he's not playing. So, that was a smart move, I agree, and it will make for a more satisfying read, and like you said, who knows? Maybe Batman makes an appearance towards the end. Although, I think he's in his own mini-series right now, and that's probably part of the reason why they had to take him out of this one.

[26:54] John: I have no idea what the crossovers in this are going to be. Obviously, any of my complaints were complaints of--I don't know--of a minor league, because I'm going to buy the next issue. I might even buy some of the crossovers. This is just a flat-out fun fall, talk to your friends, pick who's going to win, what are the stakes? It's one of the self-knowing ones, but in a way that I think works. The stakes seem to be set up in a way that the self-reflexivity of knowing that it's a comic book is part of it. It's built into it. It's not going to feel like a cheat. As much as I like Matt Fraction, but Fear Itself was a deconstruction of superhero events, in a way that was a real unsatisfying superhero event, and this seems like not that. This seems like a stripped-down version of a superhero event. All the stuff you want from it, none of the filler, but it knows where its bread is buttered, but it's also telling you how it's flavoring the butter. I don't know.

[27:50] David: Sure. I don't know, but overall, I agree with you, 100%, John. I like the fighty fight. I'm here for it. There's a long-standing tradition of superheroes meeting and fighting each other, immediately, through misunderstandings, and whatnot. So, they're just stripping all that away, and getting straight to the fight, and I'm 100% behind it. I like it. It's interesting. DC continues to make these really cool moves. For the most part, I just don't feel like they're stumbling much, at all. I'm enjoying Justice League Unlimited. I'm enjoying almost all of the Absolute Line. I'm liking all the little spin-offs, like Watchtower, and what's the other one? There's another Justice League spin-off that I'm reading, that I'm enjoying. Anyway, I'm really enjoying all the stuff that they're doing, and the marketing for this one definitely worked, because I mean, they got me to make a bracket. Holy moly, that's pretty impressive. It's a level of engagement that you're not going to get from me, most of the time. So, that was pretty good.

[28:47] John: Yeah. As you were saying that, I was counting, in my head. I think I'm reading 5 Batman comics right now. I'm having a good time with a lot of the DC stuff. I agree with that.

[28:59] David: Yeah. Good time. That's a good way to put it. Just having a good time with what they're doing over there. They seem like they're firing all on all cylinders.

[29:08] John: Yeah. I remember talking to you, several years ago, at an […], a hamburger place. I think that we were in this weird little pocket of DC that, years from now, people are going to look back, and be like, “this is actually a really good time,” even if the sales weren't there, or something, but they rode that into, I think, better sales, into a lot of good initiatives. That wasn't a little thing that came and went.

New York Comic-Con is just starting today, or yesterday, as we're recording this. They've announced Vertigo is returning. Vertigo has been rebooted so many times. You've heard me make fun of some of the Vertigo reboots, where they were flooding a market that did not exist, with stuff that anything good is just going to get lost in there. I don't know, but man, that is some exciting, fun announcements. I don't mean that in a, “here's the earth shattering. Alan Moore is going to write the new Sandman comic,” or something like that. It’s “that's a cool Vertigo book with today's people,” the people that did--what was that one? Jessica—the last name Keeps Breaking Up With Me. Mariko Tamaki.

[30:20] David: Oh, no. I haven't seen any announcements coming out. I've been on vacation. So, I purposely unplugged.

[30:26] John: you filled out a bracket.

[30:28] David: Well, yeah, and I have no idea how that got to me. I really don't, but it did get to me, and I totally immediately went and filled one out, but outside of that, I haven't been paying much attention, to be honest. We’ve got to have Mariko Tamaki on the show sometime. We talk about her so much, we’ve got to get her on here. It was delightful to have Nicole Goux on the show a few weeks back. That was a really good episode. Everybody, go and listen to that interview. I thought we did a good job with that one, too.

[31:00] John: Laura Dean Keeps Breaking Up with Me, by Mariko Tamaki and Rosemary Valero-O’Connell. They're doing a--looks like a horror series at Vertigo now. Eduardo Risso and Brian Azzarello are doing another 100 Bullets.

[31:13] David: Oh, really? Is it a 100 Bullets spinoff, of some sort? That's odd.

[31:18] John: Friend of the show, Kyle Starks, has a series. Chris Condon and Jacob Phillips coming over, and doing a series there. Ram V and Mike Perkins are coming back together, and doing a Vertigo series. It's stuff like that. That's how a lot of this stuff should have worked, was feeding into DC good, unique writers and artists, and then feeding back into a creator-owned environment, the best that you had at DC, to do their creator-owned stuff with a good deal at the place that they wanted to be at, assuming they have a good deal.

[31:49] David: I hope so.

[31:51] John: There's a Tom Taylor/Darick Robertson series.

[31:53] David: I did see an announcement of that, mostly because David Server is the rep for Darick Robertson, and David and I go way back. I guess, Darick and I go way back, too. Anyway, I saw on David's Facebook feed, or something, he announced the Darick Robertson. That looks really cool. It's zombie dinosaurs. So, I'm like, “yeah, sign me up.” I'm 100% there for that.

[32:17] John: Seems exactly like what Vertigo should be doing. I don't know. I think that seemed like a really smart move. Tom Taylor wrote The Big Zombie Book, right? I mean, he's got a bunch of other stuff, too.

[32:27] David: Sure, but DCeased, that was a pretty big one for him. It's arguable that that's his biggest thing at DC.

[32:32] John: That seems smart, grabbing the existing creative teams, and having them doing creator-owned books, and having them come on and do creator-owned books.

[32:39] David: Not only Tom Taylor, but bringing back the guy who drew Transmetropolitan. That's not a bad idea, either. Darick Robertson's a big deal at Vertigo.

[32:47] John: Yeah, absolutely, and then—sorry--the other crazy thing that they're finally doing is publishing the end of Rick Veitch's Swamp Thing run--the famous issue that they pulled, where Jesus was crucified, on Swamp Thing--as it turned out, that he was the cross. The late Michael Zulli drew most of it. So, it's getting finished off by Vince Locke, who's a very good pick for that--very Michael Zulli-y artist--and then the subsequent 3 issues are going to come out, too.

[33:14] David: Oh, wow. Is Veitch involved in that?

[33:16] John: Yeah, he's supporting it.

[33:20] David: That's great.

[33:21] John: […] a letter-writing campaign that I guess somebody at DC suggested he do, and then they asked him to stop it, because they got so many letters for it, according to him, but it all seems very positive. He's super in favor of it.

[33:36] David: That's great.

[33:37] John: Yeah, it’s neat. They show the covers, and it's all done in the style of a 1989 DC comic, except it says Black Label under the DC logo.

[33:46] David: That's cool. I guess, those four issues get packaged as their own trade paperback.

[33:51] John: That was one of the funny things that Bleeding Cool had noticed, earlier this year, when book market stuff came up, that there was a new volume of Rick Veitch--I'm not sure how you say it--Swamp Thing, containing some comics that didn't exist, and he started putting together. It might have been this.

[34:08] David: There you go. Good old Rich Johnson. He's got his finger on the pulse all the time, John. Not the level of reporter that we are, but close. Well, John, we were going to talk about some other stuff today, but I don't know. Should we keep this going? I feel like we blew an hour on brackets.

[34:30] John: Weirdly, it did turn into the all-DC issue, but that's fun.

[34:33] David: I don't think it's a bad thing that we're talking about DC, and giving them flowers. They're doing a lot of stuff right over there, as far as I can tell, and really enjoying them. So, I'm happy to support, happy to talk about them.

[34:44] John: That's one of the other things that was on Bleeding Cool today, that relates to this, that we were talking about, is that Marvel announced that the Ultimate Universe is ending in April of next year.

[34:53] David: […].

[34:54] John: Bleeding Cool currently has a headline, No One Believes That The Ultimate Universe Is Ending. The Bleeding Cool story says that you're probably not going to believe this, but here's the story. The way they got Hickman to agree to do it was that, contractually, it ends in three years, because they didn't want it turning into another Krakoa thing. He wanted to have it built-in that this is going to end. So, when he took over conceiving of the Ultimate Universe, it's in the contract that it has to end in April. So, that's bizarre and fascinating, if true, and weird that that's some of--especially Spider-Man--I think that that's some of Marvel's bestselling books.

[35:28] David: Yeah. Wow. Story-wise, they've got it built-in—[…]. In the Ultimate Avengers comic book, there's a countdown. Every single month, they're counting down how many months they have left until The Maker comes back, and the entire story is built around The Maker's coming back, and we have to be prepared for it. I mean, that's the entire Ultimate Avengers storyline. So, I mean, I love this. I'm fascinated by that, but they can't just cut their most popular line off. There's got to be some way for them to pivot. There's got to be a pivot there, of some sort. There's a million ways you could collect that series, if they actually did put a pin in it, and finish it in that way, and you can always do a different Ultimate Line down the road somewhere. It'll be fascinating to see how that plays out. That is interesting, John, because if the business is influencing the story, the creative, in that way, that's a new one. That's blowing my mind. Ultimate X-Men--where does that go? And Black Panther, and Ultimate Spider-Man. You've got an Ultimate Wolverine book. That line has 6 books in it, and it's got to be their better-selling stuff. It's got to be. Well, that'll be interesting to see what they do. That could be fun. Maybe they're going to do something interesting. Let's see.

[36:45] John: Yeah. I can see the smart reasons for doing it, too. 3 years into something, it's hard to keep momentum going on something being new and exciting, and you start having to make big changes around that time, I think. If you build it in, there's a conclusion. Even if the Ultimate Universe ends, and then the same way Miles popped out, and went into our universe, maybe there's some other iteration of it that comes out, that accomplishes what everybody would want, which is keep the bestselling stuff going, but also end the Hickman thing. Maybe that works, but maybe you just end it. You just have this finite thing that, from now on, can exist in different formats. You can do an omnibus of it. You can do whatever.

[37:25] David: Ending that I've seen in a while is--I think I've talked about it on the show--is the Guardians of the Galaxy, where James Gunn finished his trilogy, and that was an incredibly satisfying ending, because it definitively ended the storylines of all the characters, and the group, as a whole, and then set up all kinds of funny, interesting ideas for somebody to take and use, or not. It doesn't matter. We finished the story, but there's more that can be done, if anybody wants to take the baton up, and run with it. You could do that here. You can create a really satisfying ending, and have that also act as a launch point for entirely new and different things, or not. It can just be a finished thing, and be done, and people can take that up, or not, depending on what the plans of the company are, which direction they want to go, and taking those talents, and putting them on something new and fresh, just something new and interesting, and let them do another Ultimate Universe--not necessarily Ultimates, but whatever it is--is not a bad idea.

I've been thinking a little bit more about Marvel, and what's frustrating me about Marvel right now, and I do think the part of the thing that's frustrating me about Marvel, which is weird to say, is that they've got some of their cool A-list-type talent, or potential developing into A-list-type talent, on stuff that I'm just not interested in, maybe. Star Wars has a lot of comic books. They make a lot of Star Wars comic books, and that used to be Dark Horse's job, and now it's Marvel's job, and Marvel's making Aliens comic books, and that used to be Dark Horse's job, and Marvel's making Predator comics. That used to be Dark Horse's job, and that stuff used to be other places, and Marvel was focusing on the Marvel superhero universe. So, all its talent, and all of its ideas, were focused on that, and they've been pulled away from that, in some ways, because they're having to service these other big Disney brands now, and I think that is to the detriment of Marvel, overall. I don't think it serves them. I think it's much better to let those properties be served by other publishers. Marvel should be focused on what Marvel does best, which is the Marvel superhero universe, and I know that's a weird thing to say, because I'm always all about having diverse story, and science fiction, and horror, and all that stuff, but I don't necessarily want that for Marvel. Marvel does superheroes. That's what I want from Marvel. Getting off on a tangent there.

[39:57] John: No, that makes sense. There's something to any of those comics, like Alien, Predator, or whatever, that is always going to be subservient to live action film and TV. That's always the real thing. It's rare that you see the stuff feeding it from other material, and I mean—actually, maybe Alien and Predator is a good example of one that did, where Alien vs Predator started as a comic book, turned into a--I actually haven't seen them, but by all accounts--terrible movie franchise, but the more Marvel does stuff that's really good Alien and Predator stuff, the more it can lend that feeling that the Marvel line is that to the movies. The Marvel Comics service the movies, not the movies take their inspiration from the comics, or more dramatically, the comics are fueling the movies from 10 years from now.

[40:53] David: Maybe, but the version of that we're probably going to get is the version I'm least interested in, which is Aliens vs Avengers.

[41:02] John: What I mean is that, doing these stories leads you to that same--I'm saying it drags the Marvel universe down with it, not raises it up.

[41:07] David: Right. Exactly.

[41:09] John: Aliens vs Avengers was a spectacular. Really good, really bizarre, really interesting take on that stuff. That was totally not what I expected, but that's still--I don't know. Wouldn’t Marvel Comics […] better served if that was a Marvel comic?

[41:23] David: 100%. A Jonathan Hickman/Esad Ribic mini-series, in some superhero event level thing would have been--I would argue that it would be more successful than Aliens vs Avengers. It would have been more successful, and I dug that story. I really enjoyed Aliens vs Avengers. That was a cool book. A satisfying ending. It was a great read, but come on, man. You've got Esad Ribic. I want to see Esad Ribic drawing superhero stuff, not half superhero stuff, half weird aliens. I don't know. It was a great book. I'm glad they did it. That is definitely the best version of that. So, kudos to putting that together the way they did, because that was definitely the way to do it, 100%, but I just feel like, even though that's the way to do it--I don't know--is that what you should be doing?

[42:14] John: Which brings me all the way back down to my original question about DC K.O., which was exactly the thing I was thinking about, that this is the best version of this. Is that where we want things to be? I still had a good time with it, either way, both times. That all ties together, for me.

[42:28] David: Perfect. Put a bow on it, like we're professionals, like we've been doing this for three seasons now.

[42:33] John: Oh, boy.

[42:35] David: I'm feeling good, John. Any complaints you need to air?

[42:37] John: No.

[42:38] David: Well, thanks, everybody, for coming. It was wonderful to have you here. Please, like and subscribe. Tell a friend about the show. We're working hard over here to give you some free entertainment, and we hope you share it. We'll see you next week. We’ve got some really cool stuff planned next week. We're coming back with the Top 10 Hottest Artists at the Moment. We're getting as commercial as we possibly can, John. We're going to try a new feature pretty soon, too. I'm hoping that we can start it next week. The fans have been talking, John, and what they want to see is regular features. We talk about the things we talk about, but have that comfort food, that thing that they know that they can expect every time. So, I'm excited to share that with everybody listening. We'll see you next week. Have a great week. Bye.

This has been The Corner Box with David, and John. Please take a moment and give us a five-star rating. It really helps. Join us again next week for another dive into the wonderful world of comics.