Intro 00:01
Welcome to the Corner Box with David Hedgecock and John Barber. With decades of experience in all aspects of comic book production, David, John, and their guests will give you an in-depth and insightful look at the past. Past, present, and future of the most exciting medium on the planet, comics, and everything related to it.

David 00:24
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Quarter Box. I'm one of your hosts, David Hedgecock. With me, as always, is my very good friend, John Barber. John Barber, how you doing, John?

John 00:32
I'm doing good.

David 00:33
John, I'm Frickin' hot.

John 00:35
Well, and modest. Oh, oh the the weather.

David 00:39
The weather, John. I mean I'm in an office. I'm in a nice office. We have nice office spaces here for the business. But the only office in the entire facility that has no A working AC right now is my office, John. I'm hot. We're not here to talk about any of that, John. We're here to talk about comic books. Well I feel like I have not been on my game the last couple weeks, John.

David 00:57
I don't know what it is I think I've been distracted. You know what? I've got this Kickstarter going right now, The Miss Mean and the Midnight Guardians Book Three Kickstarter. I know that I've said this before, but it's a lot of work, John. Kickstarters are a lot of work. So uh I've been distracted because these kickstars are a lot of work. But I'm very grateful to everybody who has supported and pledged to the campaign If you go over to Kickstarter. com and search Miss Mina, it'll come up. We're doing great. Having fun with it, but it is definitely a lot of work. So anyway, I feel like I have uh not been on my game, but I'm ready today, John. I'm ready to bring it, bring into comic book love.

John 01:30
Well, that's great. All right. Yeah. No, I hasn't I don't know. If you haven't been paying attention, I've been talking a lot about typewriters, David, and I'd like to continue.

David 01:39
You did spend some time talking about typewriters last episode. It's true. Anyway, uh I have a question for you, John, because I have been thinking, I was like, man, what I want to really bring something juicy to our listeners this week. What's what's something like really topical and like cool that our listeners would want to hear from us? Because you know, the thing that we bring to the podcast arena that most other comic book podcasters can't bring is our experience, right? Like you and I have both been working professionally in comic books for decades at this point, right?

John 02:10
Just this week.

David 02:11
You make that joke a lot. I feel like you really mean it.

John 02:16
Yeah. No, I I like I don't expect the listeners to listen to every episode. So for a lot of a lot of listeners, that was a new joke.

David 02:23
I didn't mean to spoil the cafe for you there. Anyway, you know that that's what we bring. We bring a lot of experience. So here's the question I am going to pose to you as an editor of many, many years with tons of experience. Uh there's two questions and we'll see if we'll see where this goes.

John 02:39
Okay.

David 02:40
Usually I spring these things on you it during the podcast, but this one I actually gave you like 10 minutes to prep before the podcast started. I asked the question. So I you've had a little bit of time to think about this. So to be fair to you, usually though I give you zero prep, this one at least you got 10 minutes. Okay, so first question. Let's pretend that Marvel was not doing well And they came to you and they were like, John Barber, we need you to save Marvel Comics.

John 03:10
We don't even here's the thing we don't need to pretend about. There's a new regime coming into Marvel. If what you or I not both of us were Steve Whackers Like what uh what what would we do?

David 03:20
You're right. It's very topical for very of the moment. So what would you do to save Marvel? The first constraint though, I'm gonna give you some constraints because otherwise we'll talk endlessly and it we'll get into business stuff and we'll kind of be boring. The first constraint is one creator and one project. You've got to hit a home run with one creator and one project and mash those two things together, right? What is it? What would you do? Where would you go? Who would you talk to? And what would you put them on Uh if you had the one uh unlimited budget, but you've only got one creator that you can work with and it's on one single Marvel owned property. Okay. I guess Disney owned property would be is is acceptable as well.

John 03:57
For one thing, I think that it it would be like sort of a fallacy to try to build everything around one thing, to put all the eggs in the basket of one thing I think you're gonna see that this fall with Avengers Doomsday.

David 04:12
I think they're already doing it with the the midnight stuff. Okay. That's three books, not one, but that's interesting.

John 04:22
In two different times where DC really made a a big shift. One is when Jeanette Khan came on in the like late seventies up through the aftermath of Watchmen and Dark Knight. That was a a real building period and that was a you know, there there there was a time you had to do it and then you There wasn't a way to just go like, well, what if we got Frank Miller to draw a Batman? Like that was probably the right thing, but y you had to do Ronin first. You know what I mean? They had to you had to give him a reason to come over there. You know, he's being treated, I think, fairly well at Marvel. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't I don't really know. But you had to lure him over there and not lure him over in a uh a disingenuous way, but like give give him the things that he that he wanted beyond drawing a 48-page Batman comic that turned into Dark Knight. Like I think there's a little bit there. The other time is like the current turnaround in DC, which I think is probably the most relevant one to look at.

John 05:13
Like what what's the absolute Batman for Marvel? But I also do think that you didn't get to absolute Batman without having like Tom Taylor's Nightwing. Tom Taylor and Bruno Rodondo Which was sort of setting a tone for the DC universe that the rest of the stuff could sort of fall in behind and and I think it was a you know multi platform attack The time that I think Marvel really turned themselves around with that was Ultimates. Maybe you could point at Brian Michael Bendis, getting Bendis on there Certainly Mark Miller and Grant Morrison, uh new X-Men. Like I don't know that you get the ultimate universe without that other stuff going on at around the same times, you know, like a r without Guardian devil, you know what I mean, without getting Kevin Smith and Joe Casada there first. But it's tricky and I I think we're getting back to a a a place where there are celebrity creators that can move the needle in a big way after coming out of a period where they hadn't where there hadn't been that for a while.

John 06:04
I I think you went from this period where you had your your Bendices and your your Mark Millers and Jeff Loebs and stuff to a time where you had a lot of other writers that got elevated to that position but didn't actually move the needle. People might like their stories, but it wasn't And they might be terrific. Like I don't mean anything bad about it, but there wasn't the automatic. If Bendis is writing a comic at Marvel, that means it's an important comic. because it's gonna fit into the main narrative of the of the Marvel universe at some point. And there wasn't the sort of I don't know, like cult of personality around him for the most part. Yeah, there were the Bendis boards, Warren Ellis at his forums Miller World, you know, like the like the social media equivalent of the time. Yeah, but certain amount of stardom to those guys that didn't exist for a little while after that or didn't didn't match up with the comic book creators. I don't know, I don't know if that makes sense I'm rambling as I try to figure this out, David.

David 06:55
Well, I did only give you ten minutes. That's all valid. I I I had more time to think about it. I had a few hours to think about it. And I I was trying to hear like More to just the sort of like the high concept version of it. Is there a singular creator on a singular project? that would like instantly do like, you know, absolute Batman numbers for Marvel, which would be the beginning of the thing that would turn Marvel around. Not saying that that would be the only thing, but that would be the launch point. that would be a marked difference for Marvel before and Marvel after. And I think Bindis is a good example. Uh, you know, I think Bindus was that guy. Bindus did sort of come out of nowhere. Like he got discovered. and thrown on Marvel in my feeling. Like, as far as I remember, he was doing some like crappily self-drawn graphic novel stuff at image. And then he got picked up on Sam and Twitch for McFarlane, which was the best thing ever. Like Sam and Twitch was an amazing book. Yeah. Love that book. And that's where I found it. That's where I'd first discovered Bendis. But then the next thing he does, I think, is it's Ultimate Spider Man, right? His first book at Marvel, was it Ultimate Spider Man or did he do some other stuff first?

John 08:04
I believe he did a short run on Daredevil, not The one with Al Believe. He did several issues of Daredevil.

David 08:10
I think you're right. When he sort of transforms Marvel's fortunes a little bit with Ultimate Spider-Man Normal One, he was a r still a relative unknown, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I I would say that Mark Bagley was much more known as a as an artist and as a creator and as a commodity at Marvel than Bendis at the time. But I don't think people were there for Bagley. I think people ultimately were stuck around for Bemis, clearly because Bendis's career just skyrockets from there, right? And then he's responsible for the entire Marvel U for many, many years. Yeah. The core stuff. And I think we're seeing that right now at DC. You've got absolute Batman in to a slightly lesser degree or much lesser degree. The absolute line. And that one's a little weird because I think it's more about Nick Dragota than it is about Snyder. But I'm not sure. It could just be the perfect marriage of those two guys. that's doing it.

John 09:07
Well it's it's more about the attitude, I think, than anything.

David 09:10
Like I I think And I feel like that's coming from Dakota, not so much from There's an approach across all of 'em that is

John 09:18
taking on influences that are more contemporary than a lot of other comics take on. Like I don't mean that like You shouldn't go back and read old comics, because I definitely do that. And I think you should and you can learn a lot of stuff from that. Use a lot of things you can pick up. But I mean like not learning from the comics that came out seven or eight years ago, you know, like like not picking up on that stuff. And bringing in manga, bringing in the manga storytelling in the sense of the way the relationships of the characters function and the the visuals of it. And then Dragota just home run after home run of of everything. I think you're right. He was definitely seeing that big bulky figure. But I think there is like an overall attitude that has to happen for that to be allowed. Like if Nick Dragota had been drawing Wolverine, we wouldn't be talking about this. Like it would it would have been a a a well-drawn Wolverine run.

David 10:06
I you you're right. Like in the most two most recent examples that we're just talking about, going back to like the Joe Cassada era and the Brian Michael Bendis era. It was Quesada and um Bill James. Uh they cleared the deck, right? They like cleared the deck. They they said, hey, we're taking any restraints our getting pulled off. Editorially they cleared the deck. There were no more Sacred Cows, period. And that was required or necessary to get somebody like Bendis, get his voice into the mix, into the Melu, and for people to resonate with that new interesting voice and his staccato style of dialogue and you know the the differences that he brought. Those things weren't going to exist. without that sort of editorial clearing on the decks, probably. Or if they did exist, they weren't going to exist in a way that would really be pouring gasoline on a fire the way Bindus ultimately did I at Marvel in those days. And I think you're exactly right here. We had an editorial clearing of the decks at DC. The powers of B said, we're gonna do things different. We're gonna be bringing different people. You know, Mary Javins comes in as editor in chief. Jeff Johns and his crew that are now Ghost Machine, that was DC, right? Like Jeff Johns was running DC practically. And, you know, his guys, Gary Frank and Um, Francis Manipole and Jason Fabok, those were the go-to guys artistically. For one reason or another, they left. And that cleared the decks and it sort of opened things up creatively. And what came out of that is, you know, something really cool and interesting and feels new and fresh, even though it's clearly drawing on inspirations that, you know, a lot of people recognize. So who is that guy for me? I think that guy is Daniel Warren Johnson.

John 11:46
I think Daniel Warren Johnson is a

David 11:49
unique creative talents in this moment who has enough heat around him and enough commercial and critical awareness that he can kind of Whatever he's going to do, he's gonna sell six figures worth of units no matter what. So I think Daniel Warren Johnson would be the guy that I targeted, but Daniel Warren Johnson has done stuff at Marvel. He did the beta rebuild thing and no one cared. Dan Warren Johnson did the Wonder Woman thing, and I don't think anybody really cared about that either, even though I think both of those I think the Beta Rebel thing actually kind of fell flat for me, but the Wonder Woman one is really well done. I Really like it. So if it's Daniel Warren Johnson, then what is the property that you put on that? I'm fairly certain that it's Star Wars. So it's not actually a Marvel superhero book, but it is Disney, it is Marvel, and it's Star Wars. And And this goes back to the seventies, right? Because the thing that kept the lights on at Marvel in the late seventies and actually helped them propel them above DC was the Star Wars comic book. I think you can revisit that in twenty twenty six And you put Daniel Warren Johnson on a book on a Star Wars book that comes out basically after Return of the Jedi that's in canon. and let him play with all the, you know, the sacred cows and and do some cool storytelling and get him drawing X Wings, you know, fighting in space and Darth Vader with his Sword, man, I think that would do huge numbers. And I don't know if you've ever read the Ashcan that Daniel Johnson did, Green Leader.

John 13:15
I tell people about that all the time actually, yeah.

David 13:17
That was the first time I ever actually ever discovered Daniel Warren Johnson. My my brother, who is also a a comic book nerd, told me about it. I was going to some comic convention and my my brother was like, Hey There's this guy, there's this artist, his name's Daniel Warren Johnson, and he's gonna have a table at the show you're going to. He's got an ash can that I heard about. Will you grab one for me? And so I did and I grabbed one for myself and thank goodness I did that's those things are worth the hundreds of dollars now. So I've got a signed Green Leader Ash can from like 2015. And there's a little nice little remark in it too. It's pretty cool. But I remember thinking even in that moment, like this seeing that Green Leader, this is Years before he really blew up, holy moly man, this guy, I would love to see this guy doing a Star Wars comic book. That's gonna be my um like adhering strictly to the like one creator, one property to save Marvel, I think that might be the be the one.

John 14:11
Okay, that's interesting. When you're talking about Bendis and that era of Marvel, one of the things that was a real change in Marvel culture when Quesada came in. And this is more of a Quesada thing than a gemis thing, I think. You knew Joe Joe had a big respect for the artist. But Joe also had a big respect for the writers. And that was a thing that Marvel hadn't had before. You know, when you go back and you look at like DC in the eighties, DC through the m the mid to late eighties. was Alan Moore, Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, Peter Milligan, Neil Gaiman.

David 14:49
A bunch of British guys and

John 14:50
Frank. Yeah, and Frank didn't write that much. Things he wrote were important to DC.

David 14:55
Just a little.

John 14:56
But Marvel, what you had at that same period was them hiring assistant editors to write stuff. And I don't have a problem with that, you know, like like necessarily.

David 15:05
Or like marketing people like pulling Peter David out of the marketing department. To be fair, that worked, right?

John 15:10
Like the closest thing you can come to a counterexample at Marvel was Chris Claremont, which is like crazy when you go back and you you compare how people were talking about stuff in that era, and Peter David. And I'm not saying the Marvel stuff was like always terribly written. Far from it. I don't think that at all. You know I love Roger Stern's Avengers, but if you put Roger Stern's Avengers next to Watchmen You're not like, why was everybody talking about Watchmen this year? You know, like look, you had the Avengers too. Like obviously you're gonna be talking about Watchmen. So when you look at the that list, you know, like that, who who came into Marvel during the Jemis Casado run? Well, it was Grant Morrison, it was Peter Milligan, it was Neil Gaiman, took a long time, but it was Neil Gaiman. Definitely tried to get Alan Moore. They did get, you know, Brian Vaughn. The other thing going on at Marvel. I'm sorry, this is the other piece of that. What Marvel did have in the late 80s, early 90s was the hottest artists. And all the hot artists went over to Marvel, right? They fled DC, except Jim Lee. But like McFarlane. Larson, Wifel, Quesada, all those guys like left, went over to Marvel, and that's where they made their their names. And then Marvel really like opened the floodgates and got all the Jay Lee's, uh Steven Platt, and Greg Capullo, the Kuberts who were were doing stuff at DC, and then they, you know, they they were they were hardcore Marvel guys, you know. And then after that, there was like a hangover and Marvel editorially wanted to go back to normal. But to me, the moment that I really recognized that was the end of Heroes Reborn, where you come back and it's like the most reasonable versions of these characters. What's the most reasonable version of Avengers? Well you had George Perez, who used to draw Avengers and now is much better. And he's and he's gonna draw every Avenger. And you get Kurt Busaic, who's gonna who knows everything about all the Avengers, and we're gonna deal it's all gonna be the continuity of it and all this stuff. And there's a real conservatism towards what they were doing at that time. And where I think Joe came in was this sort of two-pronged thing of like, well, let's get vertigo writers and image artists. And put those two things together because I like the really good writing and I like the really good art. Boom, let's get that going together. And like philosophically, that was sort of what was going on.

John 17:16
Bagley was, and I love Mark. Bagley was the Incredible Hulk movie to the Iron Man movie. The reason Iron Man and Incredible Hulk came out the same year was that Hulk was a very popular Marvel character. Marvel didn't really have the movie rights to them. They had to sublicense it from uh Paramount, who was distributing the movies at the time. But that was their insurance policy because you could focus test what Marvel characters do you know? Spider-Man, Hulk. Hulk had a TV show. Everybody knows Hulk. Iron Man, you gotta explain he's not a robot. How's that gonna go? We don't know. Turned out Iron Man did great. Hulk didn't do so well, but like the Hulk was there as the insurance policy. It was the one that they knew was gonna be okay. If Iron Man bombed, you still have a movie that's gonna be fine a little bit a few months later, and you don't need the scene with Robert Downey Jr. saying they're gonna make the Avengers in the Hulk movie. If Iron Man bombed, people didn't react to that last scene, that was just a joke at the end of the movie you move on with your life and you've got a Hulk movie that does okay and you can build your movie program around that. And Bagley was that. Like he was like Spider-Man guy. So he's he could draw Spider-Man. You know, he the the fans they'll be on board because of Bagley Philosophically that was like this this big change in like you said, a deck clearing. Like it was like a big moment, like you said, throwing out all the sacred cows. And it was all the sacred cows that had sort of built up around Marble. It was all the barnacles around things. I don't think there's anything wrong with editors writing. I don't think there's anything wrong with guys from marketing coming over and writing. The problem is if that's all you're doing. And that becomes an automatic thing that the person in in marketing gets to write, not that the person in marketing writes as well as Peter David and thus gets to write. That was the big the big change over there. I feel like you're right. I I hadn't even put together the ghost machine stuff, but that is the guy running DC, leaving, and bringing all of the people with him. I don't know which direction that went. I assume it wasn't DC firing Jason Fabuck.

David 19:02
It seems like all of that is fairly amicable. I actually just heard uh an interview with Jason Fabuck on uh friend of the show, David Harper, on his podcast. I think all that was amicable, but I do think that DC was like, we're moving in another direction. Not a, hey, we don't want to ever want to use you again, but Hey, you're no longer the guys that we're searching out and we're going to highlight. We're going to try something else. Which they were right. That was the correct thing to do because they were failing. DC was a failing company. It might have been failing slowly, but it was still failing. The worst thing to do is to, you know, do the same thing over and over again and expect different results And so they had to take those swings. And I think Mary Javins rightly cleared the decks. I mean, I don't know how that all went down, but Jeff Johns was no longer the architect and and Snyder is the architect now. Ultimately, that was the right way to go and all those guys went with them. Honestly, at the end of the day, regardless of how that all shirk out, I think we've got the best of both worlds now because Man, I love the Ghost Machine stuff coming out of the image. Jason Fabock doing Rook.

John 20:03
Yeah.

David 20:03
That stuff that he's doing is mind-blowing. The level of inventiveness. and world building that he's doing with his art is just next level. It's a rare thing that we are watching. And we wouldn't have that if he was, you know, stuck doing Three Jokers Part Three right now. We wouldn't have that. I think the same thing goes for, you know, Brian Hitch doing uh Redcoat, Francis Manipool doing the Rockefellers. And I'm much more interested in those guys doing those things. than I am in those guys doing another Superman or another Batman book. I don't want that from them. And so I think it all worked out because I'm way interested in absolute Batman. with Nick Dragota as the artist. I'm way more interested in that. And then if it was Jason Fabock, I feel like I'm kind of picking picking on Jason Fabok, but I'm also saying he's a new fresh take on an old theme is great. Sign me up

John 20:53
Let's not forget Brian Hitch was mid-Superman comic when he when he went over there and it took like two years for issue two of that uh last days of Lex Luthor to come out. Any one of those guys, I think you could you could take them right now and put them back in a DC comic, and that DC comic would be hotter than it would have been with them a couple years ago. Like I'm saying that like like almost like this week. You know what I mean? Like l like after after last week's three releases the DC put out, the decks are real cleared now and bringing you know reintroducing some of those now classic artists from ten years ago, you know They they can be the hot artist of today too. Like I think.

David 21:30
Especially a guy like Jason Faboch, who you've never seen at Marvel. You've never seen Jason Fabock draw Wolverine. in a Wolverine comic book. I think that would move a needle or two. Again, I'm I'm glad that Ghost Machine exists and I'm w I'm all in on the Ghost Machine stuff. I love it. So I don't actually want anything to change.

John 21:46
No, no, no.

David 21:47
It's all shaken out exactly the way I want it to All right, John, should should we do the second half of the question?

John 21:52
No, let's stick on this. I think we're still going on this one because Daniel Warren Johnson, when he came on to Transformers. Obviously, I've got a weird perspective on Transformers. Like I don't know how to how to say this, but like the IDW Transformers stuff had been very fan favorite. It played to the Transformers fans at IDW. I think the second run of it like did that a little less so but didn't really have the breakthrough of getting into other fans. You know, it was a little down from where it had been. There was like a year without any Transformers stuff. regardless of quality or regardless of how people were approaching it, all the Transformer stuff at IDW was very space focused, very cybertron focused, trying to not be like the cartoon that you remembered, you know, or or or or playing off of expectations or whatever. Where Daniel Warren Johnson, when he came onto it, took it back to the eighties style. It was original Transformers, it was on Earth, it was characters you you you sort of knew in new situations. And like visually it was a take on Transformers you hadn't seen. Instead of it being this like really pristine technical drawing, it was more like what Nick Roach did on used to do on Transformers. uh or I guess still does. I think he still works for my cartoons, but you know, is this loose manga style in a way, you know, but but not and different. Had the one of the greatest release plans, you know, where where you secretly drop this thing. Everybody knew. You know, you weren't supposed to know that Kirkman had got the uh had even got the brand and and you didn't know they were going to show up in this other comic. Yeah. Like all of that, you know, masterfully done. I think you got a real problem trying to replicate that with Star Wars. Like I people are sick of Star Wars. Like oh wha what happens after Return of the Jedi? Man, more Star Wars storytelling than has ever existed. in movie happens after Return of the Jedi. You know, like I know what happens after Return of the Jedi.

David 23:41
I don't follow it enough to know that that's already been a thing that's been done to death.

John 23:45
Do you remember they made a Star Wars movie this year? That came out? Like that happened this year. There was a Star Wars movie this year.

David 23:52
This year? What oh, Mandalorian? Yeah. I guess that's a Star Wars movie. Yeah, I guess you're right.

John 23:57
Like that's a tough sell and it's also tough Because it's you know that no matter how in-canon a Daniel Warren Johnson Star Wars comic is, it's not that in canon. It's out of canon the second somebody wants to make a movie about something. And it isn't even like a speed bump on that, you know. And I know that they take that very seriously. I'm not trying to like slam Lucas. Like they take the cannon very seriously.

David 24:18
Yeah.

John 24:19
I'll go to extraordinary length to work around the ridiculous stuff that comes into movies that doesn't make any sense in Star Wars Canon because those movies just got made anyway. Like I think that would look good. Marvel has A thing that I've always thought was an advantage that I think may in certain circumstances turn into a big disadvantage. Or If that isn't the case, that DC figured out a really good way to make the thing that was less interesting about them more interesting, which is the Marvel characters are all about the characters. You know, like Tom Brevort used to say that the DC characters are about the mask. the Marvel characters that are about the guy behind the mask. What I took that to mean, I don't know if this is what Tom really meant, but the main thing about The Flash is that he's a guy that runs fast. And it can be Jay Garrick, it can be Barry Allen, it can be Wally West, it can be whoever. They run fast and they fight crime. The main thing about Spider-Man is he could have saved his Uncle Ben and didn't, and now that's what he's doing from now on. It doesn't matter that much that he's a spider. He could have gotten bit by a radioactive cheetah and he could run really fast like the Flash And would still be sort of the same thing. Now when you go into any DC run of a comic, that's not the case, right? Like you go into the Mike Barron flash, there's a specific guy. If you go into the Jeff Johns Mark Wade, Bill Messner, Loebs. Like all of those flashes are deep, good characters, but they're not as consistent as Spider-Man has to be for it to be Spider-Man, I think. The other corollary to that is that when How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way came out, like that wasn't a marketing slogan. That was like there's a way that Marvel comics are drawn. At that era, it's very Kirby influenced by way of Busema, who sort of normalizes a lot of Kirby weirdness while still having a tremendous amount of drawing ability. And the cantilevered angles on on panels aren't just an instinctual thing Kirby's doing. It's like, well, that's how you make it exciting. You've got the conversation. Well, get in there real close and and and make it make it dynamic. Both of those things can lead to this sort of paralysis in different ways about how to deal with characters that you can strip everything away from Batman except he's a guy that dresses like a bat and then rebuild it from there. But if you strip away everything about Spider-Man, aside from the he got bit by a spider, it's not really Spider-Man. Even like Spider-Man 2099 still has to get into the power and responsibility. And Miles Morales has to do that. Even when you do change the character, you still have to have that core of why is Miles Morales Spider-Man and not ultimate Hawkeye, you know? Well, it's because he has that power and responsibility thing, not the spider, to me, I think. Where I think DC really took advantage of that with the absolute lines was being able to clear away a lot of pieces without making them an unrecognizable thing. Does Bruce Wayne have to be a millionaire? No. What if he wasn't? Does it have to be Ant Uncle Ben that dies? No, it could be somebody else, but that you still kind of get to the same place. But absolute Bruce Wayne acts different than regular Bruce Wayne. The worldview is different in a way that the worldview of ultimate Peter Parker wasn't different than regular Peter Parker. You know, very deliberately. Like those ultimate books were stripping away all the stuff that had gone on to Marvel stuff to make it more complicated and and to lose the original you know teenagerness of it. And that's what made those work. The absolute books are a like a real change in what those characters are. I don't think you can do the ultimate trick again right now. I think that goes into the other problem that Marvel gets into where sometimes they just want to recapture their past glories. Everybody does that. DC does that too. I don't mean that that's Marvel. Disney's first big hit was You know, the three little pigs cartoon, you know, Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf? That was their first big hit. And there's a line that I think Walt Disney said of something like, You can't beat a pig with a pig. You you had to make Snow White after that. You couldn't keep doing the the the pig. So I don't think you can keep doing ultimates. And the last ultimate line was very much not like a reboot of the original Ultimates. It was a the particular story that Hickman was telling. Very particular story. Right. completely function differently than the ultimate line or the absolute line, right? Than the original ultimate line or the absolute line. Like I would much rather see Daniel Lauren Johnson doing Riff on Chainsaw Man at image than I would Seeing him do Star Wars as much as I like Star Wars right now. Yeah, in the seventies Marvel was really saved by Conan and Star Wars Those were two things that came from outside, but they really made them Marvel. You know, they really made them marvel things. And I don't think you'd have Conan the way you have Conan now without the Marvel Conan. You maybe would have Star Wars, but like that Star Wars stuff was still super influential and super impactful on people, and especially in the comic industry.

David 28:57
Yeah.

John 28:58
Um I but I don't know if it like redefined the property the way I think Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor Smith and John Bisema did on Conan.

David 29:05
I would agree with that 100%. The difference there is that the Savage Sword of Conan and Conan and the Barbarian comic books were the only Robert E. Howard Conan things going at that time.

John 29:16
That's not true though. We're doing uh this like long the books, but was anyone paying attention?

David 29:23
Was that was that a popular series of I mean I'm not saying it wasn't unpopular, but it wasn't like Star Wars movie level popularity. Right. Okay, yeah, yeah. Right. So like the Star Wars comic book was dealing with the biggest you know movie in the history of movies. And so it wasn't ever going to be a defining moment. You know, Star Wars never gonna have a defining moment in comics. because the movies were so large. Whereas Conan, when Roy Thomas was really getting into it and the magazine was popping off, that was at least the equal of anything else that was going on with Conan, and I would argue greater than anything else until you get the Schwarzenegger movie. The Schwarzenegger movie doesn't happen without the Marvel stuff. Clearly and obviously directly influencing the the movie at that point. Thomas co-wrote the screenplay for the second Conan and the Barbarian movie. So don't tell me they're worth looking at that that's stuff, right? Well John, this is far more intriguing and fascinating than I thought we were gonna get into, but I I I'm Enjoying this conversation. Hey everybody, we're gonna take a brief pause right here to talk about my new Kickstarter campaign.

David 30:29
Miss Mina in the Midnight Guardians Book Three is now live on Kickstarter. I'm super excited to share it with you. As you know, we don't Do any advertising here on the show, we just do it out of the love of comic books. But if you have been looking for ways to support us This is the way to do it. Head over to funtimego. com. There will be a link there to take you to the new campaign Miss Mina and the Midnight Guardians. What is Miss Mina and the Midnight Guardians? Well it's the dawn of the 19th century and Dracula has nearly conquered Europe. His fangs are set on America's next. Only Mina Murray and a ragtag band of monstrous allies stand in his way. The vampire king is hunting an ancient Amazonian tribe, guarding a secret, powerful enough to either crown Dracula the ruler of the world, or Or end his reign forever. The race is on to discover the secret of the golden jaguar before darkness falls over the earth forever That's the story. It is drawn by the incredible twin artistic group, the Zhang Brothers. They have a manga-inspired artistic influence that I absolutely love, written by me with covers by fantastic artists like Isaac Ward. Nominated cover artist Ludo Lullaby, Chuma Hill, and comic book legend Tony Harris, the artist responsible for Starman and X Machina. Go to funtimego. com and check out the new Kickstarter. We're live until Friday, October. October 2nd, 2026, Miss Mina and the Midnight Guardians, Book 3, live now on Kickstarter. Thank you in advance for your support. Now let's get back to the show. I also want to talk about some of the comic books we we've been reading. I've got some good ones, John. I'm excited to talk about some of the stuff I've been reading.

John 32:07
Me too. I've been on a bit of a journey. But yeah, let's see what you got.

Outro 32:10
Here's what John and David read this week! Yeah.

David 32:15
All right. You know, we've been going super esoteric with the stuff we've been reading, which is I hope uh our listeners are picking up some of these books that we've been talking about because Man, it's been so much fun reading some of the stuff in the reading. But I thought, you know what? Let's get super commercial. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty. We're gonna talk about I'm gonna talk about the stuff I'm reading that's like super current and like probably everybody's reading it too because every once in a while you need to do a little palate cleanser and also just do a a reset of like a taste reset I guess. I don't know what it what it would call, but like Let people know like hey here's why I'm digging these things that you're familiar with so that when I recommend the thing that you've never heard of before in your Is that a base sort of like understanding of where I'm coming from? So I got four books, Josh. Gee whiz. Probably gonna go through them pretty quick because I I wanted kind of touch on all four. Yeah. First one up that I want to talk about is Battle Beast.

David 33:03
All right. I've talked about Battle Beast a couple times and talked about Ryan Otley in particular. He's on our uh top ten hottest artists of the moment several times now. I think he's like in the top three right now. I just read Battle Beast number twelve. I it's come out within the last, I think, probably month since we're talking about it. They've been doing Battle Beast in sort of seasons. uh basically six issues at a time. I guess to give Ryan Otley enough time to like catch up and do everything he wants to do uh for the interiors. I'm really enjoying this format, the release schedule basically, which is You know, six months on, six months off. So the first six issues of Battle Beast launched when Invincible season three or four launched. They launched at the same time. And then issue seven of Battle Beast launched when the most recent season of Invincible, uh I guess Invincible season five. A little bit of uh synergy there, some smart timing. I just have to say for the last like three issues of this comic book, it's just been one fight against one other character. Battlebeast is fighting this other character, and Battle Beast whole thing, you know, is like He's traveling the universe trying to look for somebody who can best him in battle and kill him. Like he wants to die. That's his whole thing. The one big bad Viltrumite in Invincible, he's battling Battle Beasts, and for the last three issues, they have just been going at it. It's just basically been three issues of fight scene. And issue twelve is the most violent and gory intense superhero fight I have ever, ever witnessed and it is really cool, man. Like I am loving the fact that they're just Oh Conquest, I think is the name of the other character that he's fighting. It's just like completely like just fighty fight, fight, fight. There's nothing else to this comic book for the last couple issues. There's no character plot development. There's nothing just These two guys going at it and Ryan Otley just drawing the hell out of it, man. And I am loving it. Last issue, issues 12. It appears that they have both managed to kill one another. They've both collapsed o on top of one another in a literal pool of blood. They're both their blood. Their guts that have been like spilled. Battle Beast at one point is eating the guts of conquest. It's just insane, dude. That the fight is completely insane. So and that's how they finish off. the second season of Battle Beast. I have to wait all the way until like March or April of next year to find out what happens next. And I am loving this book. It is so much fun. Like You know, sometimes you just want big dumb fun, like a lot of times for me. I just want big dumb fun and man uh Battle Beast is delivering in every possible way.

John 35:49
Oh, that's cool. All right.

David 35:57
So my next one up is uh, and I talked about this one also a little bit, but I wanted to just highlight it, is the new Shaolin Cowboys Staying AI Live. Uh staying alive. This is a 20-page comic book, John. This is issue two, and I believe it's a four-issue series. Maybe it's more than twenty pages actually now that I really look at it. But it's a standard comic book of a somewhat standard comic book length. And this book, I'm not joking, took me about two hours to get through to read in the most pleasurable possible way. Because Every single panel of this book is so fully and completely and lovingly rendered. It commands and demands. that the reader spend an inordinate amount of time on every single panel in order to appreciate what Jeff Darrow is doing with this book. It is amazing and thought provoking and just wonderfully rendered in the most incredible detail that one can possibly imagine. If you've never experienced a Jeff Darrow comic book, definitely pick up any Shaolin Cowboy. But staying AI alive, it does feel like he has gotten somehow even more detailed and noodly than he ever has before. It is an incredible feat, what I've read. There's a thirteen panel page, and the thirteenth panel takes up about a third of the page. And in that, just that single panel, that large panel on the page, there are fully realized At least 25 people in different poses surrounded by cars and a house Also dogs and car parts and old rusty barrels and guns And that's just one panel of the book. And it is insane to look at. It is the most incredible work going right now. I don't know how Jeff Darrow does this and stays sane. I don't know. But man, am I enjoying the heck out of it?

John 37:59
That one I'm I'm up to date on. I am loving every minute of that. I think I might have mentioned this too. Like I I I've been watching some of his interviews on um cartoonist K Fib. And he's like just seems like such a nice, like humble guy. It's fascinating because like his storytelling is real good and he doesn't need to do all the crazy details he does or he doesn't need to do the parts where he's like telling a story. It's like perfect comics. If you stripped out the art, there's nothing there. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean like the story is the art. The art is the story. It's like a it's like the people talking about like plot or character. This is the same thing here. It's the story and art are the same thing. And here's an aside. Did you see the comic his daughter did?

David 38:44
What? No.

John 38:45
Yeah, it's called Tramps of the Apocalypse.

David 38:46
Yeah. Oh, that's I didn't put that together. That's his daughter.

John 38:49
I didn't either. I I I bought it. I read I actually read the whole series. Uh uh I enjoyed it. Nothing like him It's Faster Pussycat Kill Kill in a post apocalyptic world. Yeah. She's worked on um Futurama and uh Disenchanted as a character designer and then I guess she did a French language book with her mom, who is French. Jeff Darrow lives in France.

David 39:09
I like Trance of the Apocalypse okay. It wasn't like We haven't talked about on the show and and the reason for that. I enjoyed it. But uh that's interesting. Yeah. Anyway, Shaolin Cowboy man, holy moly. Somehow Jeff Darrow is at the top of his game and he's been at the top of his game for 30 years now, it seems like.

John 39:24
I I just don't know how he's doing what he's doing. He started at the top of his game.

David 39:27
It's crazy that he started at the top. You're right. Like hard boiled was the first thing that he did.

John 39:33
No, the first thing he did was a portfolio set that Mobius inked.

David 39:38
That's right. I've never seen that portfolio set though, but I I know what you're talking about. Have you seen it?

John 39:42
I've seen I've seen images of it. It's neat, yeah. Here's the thing, and this is the thing that I think actually hurt him. is that if you didn't know who Jeff Darrow is, you would never think somebody other than Mobius could have drawn that thing. So you would have thought that Jeff Darrow clearly didn't do anything on it. Because Mobius clearly did all of it. But it looks like a Jeff Darrow piece. It's like, you know, it's like a million things happening, and then Mobius inked it or call, you know, whatever, if did some work on it, but it was assuredly there. When Mobia started, you know.

David 40:09
Wow. Man, that's that's incredible. This is mostly by coincidence, but the other book that I wanted to talk about this week is another alum of the Matrix trilogy movies. Uh Jeff Darrow famously did a ton of the design work for the original Matrix move movie Jeff Darrow did. And his compatriot uh who also worked on the at least the first film. I think they both worked on all three though. Steve Scroach. Is that how you say his name? Scroachy? Scrous? Scrocy? Scrooch?

John 40:36
Yeah, I don't know, man. S-K-R-O-C-E Steve

David 40:39
Um anyway, Steve's got a new book out. He's kind of been popping up around comic books a little bit more recently. He did a Incredible Hulk thing over at Marvel, a two or three issue Incredible Hulk thing. I think it was Incredible Hulk. recently that I enjoyed and he's he's been writing his own stuff. And so this is him. This says it's an image book. And then you open up the inside and it's image with skybound. So I think this is a skybound book. Man, Skybound is really like just crushing it, dude. Skybound has so many great projects coming out right now in so many different levels. I'm just loving the Skybound stuff. Anyway. Tales of Wonder by Steve Scrougey. I guess I should say spoiler.

Spoiler Alert 41:18
Spoiler Alert. Spoiler Alert.

David 41:20
It starts out what it appears to be like a Stan Lee and Jack Kirby sort of Riff, you know, it's these two guys and you sort of get the feeling that it's real life and they're at a comic convention. These two guys are credited with the creation of these very Wildly popular characters, you know. It's the Stanley Avatar and an Avatar of Stanley and an Avatar of Jack Kirby And, you know, the Stan Lee characters, you know, taking all the credit for everything and sort of dismissing the contributions of anyone else, specifically the guy sitting next to him who's the Jack Kirby. Analog. Analog, I think, is the word I was looking for. Okay. It kind of goes on like that for a few pages into the story, and it the the story's sort of leading you down this path of like, oh you know, there's some conflict here between the Stanley analog and the Jack Kirby analog, because the Stanley analog's taking all the credit for everything. And the Jack Kirby analog on this panel is about to basically out the fact that the Stanley character isn't the true creator of all these things that he takes credit for and there was and that you know the Jack Kirby guy was like, you know, should get some of the credit. But the way he's about to make this public statement It's unclear what exactly he's about to say. And before he actually is able to say what he wants to say, the Jack Kirby character, suddenly from another dimension, these dudes show up. uh all these superpowered characters who are the exact characters that they've been given credit for creating in the comic books. They show up in real life. And then it just gets crazy, man. Stuff goes it goes completely off the rails from there. And I kind of love it. It it really does just take take a like a hard right turn like out of nowhere and goes in a completely different direction from sort of where you expected it w from where it felt like it was going. So I enjoyed it. It turns into a really cool roller coaster ride and you know the first several pages of it is sort of the you know in the beginning of the roller coaster you're like tick tick ticking up the hill you know and then you know you get to the top and you're like Suddenly you're you know you're in the ride. That's kind of how this book starts out. It was like a kind of a slow tick-tick-tick up the hill and then holy moly, does it really drop you off a cliff? So really enjoyed the first issue. I'm really excited to learn more Steve Scrochy, his art, something has changed, a slightly rougher style than what I'm used to seeing from him. But still, man, the guy can draw. He's a he's a fantastic artist. And I and I kinda like what he's done here. And if it means that, you know, we're getting more of his work more often, his style is perfectly suited to me. More Steve Scroochy and comic books, I'm all about it. So

John 43:54
Yeah. I I bought that. I haven't read it yet.

David 43:56
I barely heard anything about it. And the only reason that I got it was because I just happened to click on it when I was doing my pre-orders. uh with my challenger's comic subscription. I just happened to click on it. What is this? This looks weird. I didn't know anything about it until then and I haven't really heard anybody talk about it either. But definitely worth checking out. Highly recommend it as a as a nice uh start. I don't know where they're going with it, but I'm along for the ride. The last one I want to talk about and then I'll let you uh then it's your turn, John, is uh I t I talk all the time about my Rob Liefeld books My big thing about Youngblood and all the Extreme Studio stuff is that it's really only when Rob Leifeld is like drawing this stuff is when I'm most interested. A few years back, Image Comics put out some young blood books written by other people and drawn by other people and you know Life Ed was sorta involved. He was doing covers and stuff, but It's just not the same. Like the only time where I've really loved something that wasn't an Extreme Studios property or a Rob Liefeld property. that wasn't done by him that I really loved was Bloodstrike Brutalis by Michelle Fife.

John 45:01
Okay.

David 45:01
I loved that book. I thought Michelle Fife did an amazing job with that. And and everything else that's sort of been by other people has been a little hit and miss for me. Outside of like the original core crew like Marat Michaels and Dan Fraga, you know, that original stuff like that stuff still like brigade, the uh original brigade, original budget, that's like stuff still macks my socks off. So this new Bad Rock series is written by Rob Liefeld, but drawn by somebody else, Seth the Moose, who I guess has been around for a while. I just discovered that he did a book. from like 2010 called Xenoholics.

John 45:35
Oh right, yeah. They were talking with David Baker about that.

David 45:37
Dave Baker turned me on to this one.

John 45:39
Uh there was an early uh an early book by Al Williamson. When Al Williamson first started.

David 45:45
Yeah. Josh Williamson.

John 45:49
Josh Williamson, yes. Yeah.

David 45:51
So Seth Demoose has been around for a while, I guess. I don't know how much more stuff he's done outside of uh this uh Xenophole's thing from like fifteen years ago. But I'm really liking the art in this book. I got the ash can last year, black and white ash can, which I loved, but with the colors added to it, and the colors are by Pedro Estouco. E-S-T-O-U-C-O Pedro Esteuco. The colors really take it to the next level. And man, really enjoyed the book. Like the art's great. So I got another Rob Liefeld joint that I'm just Totally digging, man. Badrock did the trick, man. I I'm I really like really liked it. And Rob Liefeld's, you know, Rob Liefeld's writing it. It's uh it's definitely a Rob Liefeld written book I'm on board. I'm on board for the for the art alone.

John 46:38
Like I and of of course I'm I'm there for for life I'll I do know where I sat issue too, because I was gonna read it and I I wanna put in something else. But I I read issue one and enjoyed it. Uh yeah, Life Hell's got a great eye for colorists. Like there's no no denying that. After about issue two of Youngblood, you've got some really good, you know, Steve Olif and then Kiko Takanashi later on and And then all the all the current guys he's uh Yeah.

David 47:01
Liefeld has a very good eye for artistic talent, period.

John 47:05
Yeah.

David 47:05
Jeff Matsuda, Dan Fraga, Mrat Michaels, especially when he got over to like awesome and he started bringing like Steve Scroosh. Steve Scrooge? Right.

John 47:19
Oh yeah. Like Danny Meeky. Marvel of the era that I worked there couldn't have existed without like Danny Meeky. and his studio and the guys that came out of his studio or you know, like, yeah that sort of grey

David 47:34
So that's what I've been reading, John.

John 47:35
I was reading a bunch of uh eighties alternative stuff. Here, I'm gonna admit something on this. Nobody's gonna care that's bothered me. I've never read Building Stories by Chris Ware. I bought it the week it came out and I've had it since then. Eventually it led to me reading Building Stories, which is very good, but uh we're not gonna talk about that now. I'm somewhere near the middle of it. I don't know if you've ever read that.

David 47:58
I really like his work and I like his stuff, but I can't read it. It's too smart for me.

John 48:04
I think Chase and I brought it up at one point and uh it might uh we might want to get Chase on sometime to talk about that. I think that'd be fun. Maybe if you ever uh uh get sick. Don't get sick though, David. Two things. One, here's an actual follow-up to last week's typewriter discussion uh with uh Darcy van Polgeist. So his other new comic came out uh since then Called the the Carmen Blade that Ian Bertram's drawing. I don't know what anybody else is going to think about this. I was talking to this about with friend of the show, Mason. And uh he he quite liked the art, but but wasn't convinced about the rest of it, I guess. Uh or wasn't wasn't sure yet. No, it wasn't uh, you know, anything super negative. This is like a comic that was made for me. And Mason was saying, Oh, I got to the end. I didn't know what to make of it. And I said, Yeah, me either. So I read it again because I loved it that much and still couldn't quite figure it out. It's like if a Nick Cave song got turned into a comic book, it would be the Carmen Blade. And I mean like in terms of like darkness weirdness, stuff that doesn't quite fit together or add upright. A Nick Cave song might have a story, but there's gonna be holes in it. There's stuff that y you know you're yeah, I'm not quite sure I'm following. But also in terms of craft Man, what a cool comic. What is it about? I don't really know. This kid buries his parents in this world and then he gets captured by these other people and then a crow comes and he maybe turns into this monster and then finds his sister and his parents, but they're maybe dead, and he gets the Carmen blade and and there's a lot of blood, but it's like really nicely drawn. The mood And the vibes and the moment to moment storytelling on this was just I thought breathtaking. I was sitting there kind of like uh you know, my heart beating fast as I turned pages and then whoa, I didn't expect a two page spread there I love that and uh uh I really really enjoyed Carmen Bled. Can't wait for the next issue.

David 50:00
Man, I missed that one too. I wonder how I I wonder I missed that because man I Ian Bertram is high on my radar right now. I don't know how I missed that.

John 50:07
Yeah. Is that an image book? Yep. Just came out two days ago. I I think this is the best Ian Bertram art. Like it's certainly real good. I don't think you'll have any complaints about the art. I could see not liking the story, but I certainly did like it.

David 50:20
Little Bird and Precious Metal, like which is those two guys doing other work together. It I I'm assuming this is separate this is not a tied to those books. Those two books were in the same world.

John 50:30
Yeah. Is this one in that world as well? I don't think so.

John 50:33
Oh, okay. I do like them together. I I'm definitely on board.

David 50:37
Like I don't know how I missed this one. I'm already emailing challengers right now, like as we're talking It's like, how did I miss this? God, please add it to my hopefully they still have a copy they can get me. Here's the thing. I really need Ian Bertram to do a run on Iron Man. I need him to do a six-issue run on Iron Man. Did you ever see the Iron Man cover that he did?

John 50:57
No.

David 50:58
Hit the Googles and type in Ian Bertram Iron Man cover. It's the best Iron Man cover I think I've ever seen in my life. And I need that in my life like more than anything else. So I'm really glad that he's doing this creator owned type stuff and that's where he's putting his sort of energy, but I really, really need him to do some really super commercial stuff. Just take two years and just do super commercial like man, do a run on Batman, do a run on Iron Man, maybe do a Daredevil thing. Like Whatever you want, dude, just do it in the the cause super Marvel DC commercial stuff because I need more of that, man. That's so good.

John 51:31
Yeah.

David 51:32
And I'm saying that as a guy who really enjoyed, you know, the uh little bird and precious smell, those are good books. And I'm on board for Carmen too, but I just really want Ian Bertram to like do a super commercial thing. Like so I don't have to think when I'm moving Looking at the art. Are are you looking at that Iron Man cover?

John 51:48
And the Hulk one that you did.

David 51:50
Oh, that Hulk one's amazing too. I've been Ian Bertram over the last couple years is one of the few guys who I've been like If he's doing the cover, I'll just I'll just buy it. Uh like I don't even know what I'm buying and I'm just buying the cover, which is not something I do even for like guys like you know, Scotty Young or, you know, Peace Mamoko and like all those hot cover artists. I don't do that with any of them, even though I love their work. But Ian Bertram is the one guy who oh he's doing an incredible Hulk cover and I've never bought Incredible Hulk before. Well, guess I'm buying Incredible Hulk this month.

John 52:20
Wow. Yeah, super good.

David 52:22
K-A-R-M-A-N blade ends from Image.

John 52:26
Yes. That's the sort of Iron Man run that we need now. You know, lift these guys and put them onto Iron Man. I think that answers the first question for me. Of like what would you try to do, set him off and make a different take of Iron Man? It could not be Robert Downey Jr. Interesting stuff I I really like you doing the the the new comics and and uh I've also been reading a bunch of new comics. But here's the thing that happened. You might remember me really liking the character of the fly. The one the fly story that I read. You recall that?

David 52:58
I do. We talked about the flag extensively on one of these uh passages. The story that you were talking about was like a 70s reprint or something, right? From a story that came even earlier before that. It was the most b bonkers, bizarre, best thing ever. I love that.

John 53:11
Yeah. It was in an Archie digest. I may have mentioned I was reading like Little Lulu. Uh my son got really into this Little Lulu digest I had. And then afterwards he's like, can we read that superhero book you have in your office? What do you talk? The Archie one? He goes, Yeah. Like, yes, we can. Because I do enjoy reading like kids' books that I wouldn't read on my own. But it's also really nice to like spend the time where I'm or I'm doing this reading something I like actually want to read and haven't gotten around to reading. 'Cause I had the first volume. I'd read this volume two of this Archie Digest. I had number one sitting there, so I you know I get that off. And lo and behold, there's a a fly story in there as well.

David 53:47
Now fantastic.

John 53:49
I looked up who did it. The art was very nice again. It was an artist by the name of Jack Kirby. I don't know what happened to this guy after this. This was uh drawn by Jack Kirby, probably written by Joe Simon, according to comics. org, but that's not confirmed But it was uh Simon and Kirby were working together. So it's probably uh you know Simon and Kirby code unjoint.

David 54:08
Kirby's credited or you just know it's 'cause of the artwork?

John 54:12
org and I'm trusting them, but it Like it stands to reason. Uh also in that book is uh The Secret Life of Private Strong or The Double Life of Private Strong, which is definitely Simon and Kirby. Right. Here's the thing that I didn't know from my one issue of the fly that I read. The fly is a child who has a magic ring that when he touches the ring He turns into the fly.

David 54:36
At no point in the last time we talked about the fly story did that ever even remotely enter anything that we discussed.

John 54:43
He was never not the fly in that comic.

David 54:46
Oh, he was always the fly. Yeah.

John 54:48
Here's a number of things. One, it's irrelevant. Even in this story, it's irrelevant that he turns into a kid. But it does kind of maybe explain the the thing. Uh so again, I d telling a friend of the show, Mason, about this, because Mason's dug through a bunch of these Archie uh superhero stuff, especially after I got really excited about it. You know, I encouraged him to go dig through some of the stuff At one point, the next issue of the fly begins 15 years later, and he's just an adult from then on.

David 55:16
Fantastic. They're just like, you know what? We just can go ahead and drop this. We're not using it at all. So hold on, hold on. They literally just dropped a 15 years later caption and that just explained it away.

John 55:27
I I didn't I haven't read this one. I'm I'm just uh Hornet books are fantastic.

David 55:31
That's so good. That is so good.

John 55:33
Did we ever talk about the TV show Sledgehammer?

David 55:36
Do you know the show? Yeah, I've heard of the show, but it was a comedy in the 80s.

John 55:40
It was basically a parody of the TV show Hunter, which was this cop show. It was about a cop named Sledge Hammer. Like that was just his name. he had a gun and instead of having a silencer on it he had a louder that he would put on it so it'd make more noise. The show was like got terrible ratings. It was definitely gonna get cancelled. So in the last episode of the show, Sledgehammer has to defuse a nuclear bomb. And then uh uh he just goes rushing in and then just cuts to an explosion. And then the uh the the last commercials roll And then it comes back and it's showing uh all this rubble on the ground as the credits are rolling. And then you hear the chief go, Hammer! But the show didn't get canceled. The show got picked up for the next season. So the first episode of the next season, credits are rolling, the title comes up, Sledgehammer, the Early Years. And they they never reference it again.

David 56:31
Fantastic.

John 56:33
Anyway though, the fly, kid, magic ring, every power of every insect. None of those things connect, right? Like you'd think that like it would have been great if some of that like had anything to do with each other. Now you look at like Captain Marvel, like the original Captain Marvel. Billy Batson says Shazam and he turns into a superhero that's got all the powers of like Superman, right? And that makes sense for what a kid would want to do. The the kid being having all the powers of the fly. Like you're familiar with the phrase a hat on a hat, right? Like this is Here's the other thing that that made me think about. Famously DC sued Fawcett Publishing, the publishers of Captain Marvel, for an infringement on their Superman trademark. It's always been presented to me as a frivolous lawsuit. I always thought that was a nonsense lawsuit. But here, when you're confronted with here's the fly, And here's a kid who rubs a ring and becomes a superhero with all the powers of every insect. Here's Billy Batson. He says a magic word and becomes a superhero with all the powers of Superman. Oh, wait a minute. Like maybe they're actually to that lawsuit. Like in the app chat, it was powers.

David 57:36
No. Yeah. That's good point.

John 57:40
So This story is called Marco's Eyes. The fly and his child identity of Tommy Troy is at the taping of a TV show called Fame for the Winner Show.

David 57:50
Okay. Great.

John 57:52
You know in Gilligan's Island, like the reason that a theme song for Gilligan's Island exists is because the the setup for Gilligan's Island is actually pretty complicated and you had to explain to people who were just tuning in. This didn't need a theme song like this. What happens on this talent will get famous?

David 58:08
It's in the title. They did a good job of explaining it.

John 58:12
This hypnotist named Marco is there and he's always been trying to make the big to the big time. And that's what everybody calls it. Throughout the rest of the story. This guy was just trying to make it to the big time.

David 58:22
Big time hypnotist circuit? Yeah, sure. Trying to clarify there.

John 58:26
They do the whole Rugamarole for the TV show. Uh everybody comes out and bows and then the audience claps and the winner's chosen and it's not Marco. So uh now he's fed up. So he goes off and he uh he finds a criminal and makes a deal with them. to uh to go do some crime stuff. We don't know exactly what this is. Then Tommy is walking home and he sees a uh sign on the side of a building in this you know New York like city for Marco. And it's like Marco has got the big eyes on it And the first thing he thinks is, how did Marco pay for that? Now, in the world where like Dr. Doom spends like billions of dollars on Doom bots and nobody's ever like, how do you afford that? Like the kid doesn't even know Marco. But the first thing Marco could be a millionaire. Yeah, how does that guy afford a sign? Like that guy was obviously such a piece of shit he couldn't afford a sign.

David 59:15
Such a loser There's no way that dude could afford a sign. Everybody knows how big a loser Marco is. He keeps trying to make it to the big time with his hypnotist routine. There's no such thing as a big time hypnotist. He doesn't even realize that. What an idiot. Couldn't possibly afford a sign.

John 59:32
Then Tommy sees this this guy about to get hit by a car, so he really quick turns into the fly, saves him, but then the guy just wants to go off and take the stuff to Marco or whatever. He acts like he's hypnotized and the kid didn't Tommy's like, what's going on here? So he follows the guy back to the uh the criminal uh hideout, uses his fly gun to knock out some criminals, and then uh beats out of the lead criminal this story. Which is told with diagrams and things for the for the reader, because he at length explains how this works. Marco is living in the sign

David 01:00:02
He couldn't afford it. It's his house now. That's how he afforded it. He's paying rent.

John 01:00:07
He looks through these like sort of telescope things. And his eyes are projected onto the eyes of the sign. So his eyes actually hypnotize people to go get stuff and take it to the criminal. to go get the money, you know, whatever. You know, Tommy's like, well I'm gonna go, you know, he now he's the fly. The fly's like, well I'm gonna go get him. But then we find out there's a live mic and a like a live radio going on there. And Marco's heard this whole thing and Marco says Oh, I don't know who you are, because remember, these guys don't know each other. Tommy happened to be in the audience and happened to walk by a sign. There's no vengeance, there's no anything. Marco's like, uh, well you you just come and get me and I'll hypnotize you So then the fly does. The fly goes off, goes to the sign, sees that there's one way in and out. So then he just goes in there. Marco does one thing and one thing only, which is he looks you in the eye and hypnotizes him, so then I guess the fly just looks him in the eye and gets hypnotized.

David 01:01:02
We are dealing with a child, like to be fair to Tommy.

John 01:01:05
Like, not only as a comic book creator, but as two of the greatest comic book creators ever, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, why do you include the radio? Like if it wasn't there, the exact same thing would have happened, but it would have made more sense. Or you could have had the radio, but Marco doesn't say anything. So we the reader know Marco knows. the fly is coming and now we know he's in trouble. So now when the fly goes in there and Marco's waiting for him, it's like it was a trap. It's this weird kid dream logic. I mean this is exactly like dogman. You know, like like that's I'm reading it to my kids, so I'm thinking about that. But like That's exactly how a dogman story would go. Is that, oh, come on, and okay, I'll go in there. The fly goes in there, gets hypnotized. Remember, this is a guy who has all the powers of every insect. So what he does is he manages to use his human power of speech. He says the same rigmarole that they say on a game show earlier. You're like, now take a bow. So Marco bows down and then the light shining in from the window behind him shines in his eyes and breaks the hypnosis and then the fly takes care of him. Again, the fly we've just seen knock out a bunch of bad guys with his fly gun. Like why didn't he just go to the opening and just you know, throw some fly gas in there and and win? Or even better, why didn't he call the police? This is actually a case where the police are much more better equipped to deal with the situation than than the superhero is. And He's at a guy's house when he finds this out, has to go to a different place. It isn't like he's like seeing a mugging and has to stop it. He has to walk by a phone on the way out of there. Also, what did he do with the criminals? If he didn't call the police, did they all get to go free? I love it. I'm really enjoying it. And I and I'm going back to bed and I'm like, uh man, I really liked that story. And he goes, why? I'm like, well, this is really crazy. Because what do you mean? This is how I prioritize it. I'm like, well, first of all, I feel that if you had to live in a sign, you've already lost.

David 01:03:01
He's already in prison. Yeah.

John 01:03:05
I don't know. The fly. It's like even more my favorite superhero now. Yes. Some good stuff in there. Some good some good quality stuff.

David 01:03:13
They only made two of these though.

John 01:03:14
Didn't you just digest superhero specials, yeah. I I you were buying some of these, but you were buying like the later ones where it's like the Starenko cover and stuff.

David 01:03:22
I only picked up number ones and then it kind of like But I really enjoyed them. Okay. It was the red circle stuff. But it's much more modern. Like it's, you know, it's late 70s, early 80s, like comic books, if I rem if I remember correctly. Yeah. Um and it's much more like modern sensibilities is much more like uh Claremont's, you know, already doing his thing on X-Men, right? That's what you're dealing with. But incredibly well-drawn stuff. But I think the one that you've got is probably better. Yeah. Simon and Kirby, do it again. Yeah. I wonder who created the fly. I wonder who created that. Tune in next time, folks.

John 01:03:58
Oh no, what it was it was Simon and Kirby they created Oh really? Simon Kirby created the clock? Apparently he first appeared in Double Life of Private Strong number one and then and then got his own series.

David 01:04:10
Wow. Well there you go. Look at that. Speaking of Kirby, dude, did you see the James Heron Demon book, the advertisements?

John 01:04:19
Oh, uh I knew it was coming, yeah.

David 01:04:21
Oh man, it looks good. I I love James Heron. I I I think the demon is a good fit for him. I'm excited for that book. All right John, well I think this is like a four parter at this point. Sorry guys. Uh oh yeah, hey, we wanted to mention Ed. We were gonna we were gonna We can take one moment to say, uh, you know, we're we're coming up on the end of season three here, everybody. And we're gonna be back for season four. Don't worry. We're gonna we're just gonna launch a new number one. But as we're coming up on the end of season three, I want to just acknowledge in a way that we haven't you know done in a while, uh our editor of the show, Ed. Uh fantastic dude. He's been with us from the very start. He is the voice that you hear at the beginning and end of the v the podcast, and he's the one that makes our complete nonsensical. Well my complete nonsensical uh talking sound coherent and semi intelligent from time to time. So thanks, Ed, for everything you do. We appreciate you. And I don't know if he's going to put a spot here, but if you uh are ever in the need or need the services of a uh fantastic podcast editor and voice actor, uh Ed your guy.

John 01:05:22
I was worried something happened to him when he started saying that, David. No, he thought the tribute. Oh my God. Ed, I'm glad you're okay. I was really I was concerned. I was concerned.

David 01:05:32
I mean, if there was something wrong with Ed, no one would hear this podcast. So he would we'd no one would ever know that there was something wrong because it just wouldn't the podcast just wouldn't exist anymore. In fact, if the podcast ever stops existing, it's probably because Ed decided to not work with us anymore.

John 01:05:47
Which is reasonable.

David 01:05:48
Very.

Ed Bishop 01:05:48
Thank you guys. I really appreciate this. I also appreciate you trusting me with editing and assembling your podcast for the last three seasons. Anyone else out there listening, please keep me in mind for any of your audio needs. I've been a professional voiceover artist since the late 90s. I also create fully produced podcast intros and outros as well as uh full audio production and assembly. So whatever you need, I'm your guy. Or if you're a comic book creator like these guys. And you'd like to do a fun and creative audio trailer for your next book, let me know. Let's see what we can create. That'd be pretty cool. So if you need anything, check out edbishopcreative. com. That's edbishopcreative. com and click whatever service you might need. Alright, thanks everyone. Alright, let me get out of here. Get back to this stupid podcast. Guys are awful. Hey, was that still recording? Oh shit.

David 01:06:39
Well thanks everybody for listening. Hope you got something out of that. I had a blast. Thanks, John, for entertaining my silly question. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you. And uh Man, we are uh just moments away from the season finale, and it's gonna be big, people. I don't want you to miss the season finale because it's gonna be huge and it's going to Launch into the new number one, the season four, new number one. It's gonna be amazing, fantastic. There's gonna be fireworks, John. That's awesome. John doesn't believe me. All right, thanks for everybody. Bye.

John 01:07:07
There's fireworks every episode, David.

Outro 01:07:15
This has been the Corner Box with David and John. Please take a moment and give us a five-star rating. It really helps. And join us again next week for another dive into the wonderful world of comics.